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      09-30-2015, 06:06 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
They can track the universe back to a single point to the big bang. Theorists have gone farther to other dimensions etc before the big bang. Something intelligent taking over after the big bang I doubt. But it all had to come from somewhere prior which still leads the door open to god. Would he care about us anymore than we care about bacteria? Doubtful. Just cause you can't comprehend coming from ooze doesn't mean it didn't happen over billions of years of mutation. Science is still new learning things. It wasn't long ago we believe a viking with a hammer caused thunder.
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      09-30-2015, 06:09 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
The world has not rejected God, most people do believe in some form of God. But the writings of MEN from a few thousand years ago do not equate to proof of the existence of Christian god
Accurately speaking, yes, the world as a whole has rejected the "Christian" God from the beginning. And true, the writings are not proof any more than my own writings that speak of my experience with God. These mere words, whether spoken now, or written down thousands of years ago are only intended to do one thing, provide the opportunity for the creation of faith. The idea that He will answer us when we call on Him.
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      09-30-2015, 06:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by 1smokehouse View Post
Accurately speaking, yes, the world as a whole has rejected the "Christian" God from the beginning. And true, the writings are not proof any more than my own writings that speak of my experience with God. These mere words, whether spoken now, or written down thousands of years ago are only intended to do one thing, provide the opportunity for the creation of faith. The idea that He will answer us when we call on Him.
I do believe in a higher power for sure, but as said earlier, I do not believe it is an old white man with a beard as the Christian God is depicted.
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      09-30-2015, 06:19 PM   #48
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Not sure if this is relevant, but if Jesus was from God... ffwd ~10:00
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      09-30-2015, 06:19 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
I do believe in a higher power for sure, but as said earlier, I do not believe it is an old white man with a beard as the Christian God is depicted.
And I completely respect your point of view. And actually, it is man that came up with the "old man in a beard" imagery. More specifically, one man - Michelangelo in 1508...
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      09-30-2015, 07:06 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
You're assuming God has to obey the same laws we do, which is incorrect.

God needs no cause (hence the name Uncaused Cause). We (this universe, everything in it) is an effect, where he is the cause. God has always existed. In fact, he can't not exist.

The fact that we are arguing over whether or not something can come from nothing is absolutely absurd. That fact itself should show anyone how lost we are.

Out of nothing, nothing comes. Case and point. If I have a room of nothing, it will never be something. It will always be nothing. If you don't believe me, try it.

Tony, the articles you point to that "prove" something can come from nothing are great and all, but they're just incorrect based on the premise. Sure, particles can change state. Light can be a wave. It can be a particle. That doesn't mean light ceases to exist when we aren't thinking of it as a particle. If something changes from matter to energy, that's not being deleted from the universe.
Not quite. Have you ever observed nothing? The answer is no. Therefore, you can't predict what nothing can or can't do.
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      09-30-2015, 09:37 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
But he hasn't told us anything. You are speaking about this being as if he is a tangible thing that we have tangible proof of. He is not, he's a hope, an idea, presented thousands of years ago without a shred of evidence or proof. We have one old book of dubious origin full of unbelievable stories and are expected to blindly follow that even when it is completely contradicted by provable, testable facts? It is absured and serves no purpose but to keep us ignorant. All we know is we don't have all the answers yet. Chalking it all up to a supernatural being who lives outside the laws of physics, who was never created and has always existed (that makes a lot of sense) who uses magic to create us and listen to our thoughts, and I am assuming the thoughts of the trillions of other species that are sure to exist on other planets, is ridiculous. So is your assertion that intelligence is not gained over time. Not even sure what that means? We are clearly more intelligent than early humans. That can not be debated.
He's told us all we need to know

Red: this whole universe is proof of God!! Look around you brother. You think all this came from nothing?

Tell me where God is completely "contradicted by proven, testable facts."

Green: I mean new genetic information cannot be added over time, making evolution on the whole impossible. Can genetic information change? Yes. Have we as humans learned? Yes. Did a chimpanzee ever give birth to a human? No.
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      09-30-2015, 09:43 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by okusa View Post
Not quite. Have you ever observed nothing? The answer is no. Therefore, you can't predict what nothing can or can't do.
People are constantly equivocating on this all the time.

When I say nothing, I mean a word denoting the absence of anything and everything.

Nothing at all. (add emphasis if necessary)

Absolutely nothing cannot produce something, to say it can is absurd and equivocates on the term nothing.

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      10-01-2015, 09:48 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1smokehouse View Post
And I completely respect your point of view. And actually, it is man that came up with the "old man in a beard" imagery. More specifically, one man - Michelangelo in 1508...
I doubt he had some grand idea on his own. Pretty sure the client (catholic church) gave him clear instructions of what to paint.
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      10-01-2015, 10:20 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
People are constantly equivocating on this all the time.

When I say nothing, I mean a word denoting the absence of anything and everything.

Nothing at all. (add emphasis if necessary)

Absolutely nothing cannot produce something, to say it can is absurd and equivocates on the term nothing.

Thank you for making my point. You don't get to use the "nothing comes from nothing" argument both for and against your position. That argument is a non sequitur in defending religious beliefs.

You cannot observe nothing (as you say, the absence of anything and everything) so you cannot make predictions regarding what nothing can or can't do.

Bottom line is that the universe does not necessitate something supernatural.
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      10-01-2015, 10:53 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post

Bottom line is that the universe does not necessitate something supernatural.
On the contrary:
The universe (an effect) does necessitate a cause. That cause couldn't have come from itself. Therefore, it would have to come from outside itself. By definition, supernatural.
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      10-01-2015, 10:55 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
On the contrary:
The universe (an effect) does necessitate a cause. That cause couldn't have come from itself. Therefore, it would have to come from outside itself. By definition, supernatural.
Outside itself does not imply supernatural. A cup or any inanimate object does not create itself, a machine or person does. That does not make the person or machine who created it supernatural
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      10-01-2015, 11:02 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
On the contrary:
The universe (an effect) does necessitate a cause. That cause couldn't have come from itself. Therefore, it would have to come from outside itself. By definition, supernatural.
And there we have it.

Your position has run its natural course.
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      10-01-2015, 11:47 AM   #58
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On the basis God allegedly created man in his own image, he must be one hell of an evil fella.....
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      10-01-2015, 01:55 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
Outside itself does not imply supernatural. A cup or any inanimate object does not create itself, a machine or person does. That does not make the person or machine who created it supernatural
Supernatural is defined as "of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable, by natural law or phenomena."

The cup and the machine that makes it are both in the universe.

What made the universe must necessarily be supernatural because its beyond this universe, which we deem natural.
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      10-01-2015, 01:57 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Nick the Greek View Post
On the basis God allegedly created man in his own image, he must be one hell of an evil fella.....
In the beginning, humans were good.

God created everything perfect.

But you notice a presence of evil in the world, correct?

From whence do you get these standards of good and evil?
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      10-01-2015, 01:58 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Supernatural is defined as "of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable, by natural law or phenomena."

The cup and the machine that makes it are both in the universe.

What made the universe must necessarily be supernatural because its beyond this universe, which we deem natural.
I completely disagree. We know how all the components of the universe were formed such as the planets, solar systems, etc. They were formed by natural phenomena. Therefor this would imply God did not make Earth, humans, etc if you're trying to claim this as supernatural
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      10-01-2015, 02:08 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
I completely disagree. We know how all the components of the universe were formed such as the planets, solar systems, etc. They were formed by natural phenomena. Therefor this would imply God did not make Earth, humans, etc if you're trying to claim this as supernatural
Planets, solar systems, etc. are IN the universe. They do not pertain to what created the universe itself. There's a distinction to be made there. What is being created in the universe can't be the cause of how the universe came into existence in the first place.
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      10-01-2015, 04:40 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
In the beginning, humans were good.

God created everything perfect.

But you notice a presence of evil in the world, correct?

From whence do you get these standards of good and evil?
Allegedly God created everything.

QED evil came from God.
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      10-01-2015, 05:36 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Planets, solar systems, etc. are IN the universe. They do not pertain to what created the universe itself. There's a distinction to be made there. What is being created in the universe can't be the cause of how the universe came into existence in the first place.
So then God didn't create planets, solar system, or mankind since they were created by natural phenomena, and your claim is that God is a supernatural entity
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      10-01-2015, 08:14 PM   #65
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Our number one instinct above all others in life is self preservation. IMO, believing in God is self preservation, so it strikes a very instinctual chord in many people. Common sense and facts don't offer any reward (life after death) so why even consider them? There's no upside.

And sorry, but a chimpanzee never gave birth to a human. We are a species that is related to apes, they aren't our great great x 100 grandparents. If chimps gave birth to humans there would be no more chimps! We are more like cousins. Check out this link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...s-thought.html

Why is it so hard for people to accept that we are related to the great apes? Go to a zoo, look at one for chrissake....open your eyes. They have opposable thumbs, can speak with sign language, smile, laugh, love, think and reason. I've spent the day with a juvenile orangatan, it was smarter than most 5 year olds and the most amazing creature I've ever seen. Like a hairy little person who didn't talk much. To think that we are somehow a completely different animal, hand selected for eternal paradise by a benevolent super being, even though we are nearly identical in genetics and appearance is ridiculous to me. How do we have a soul and they do not? The only difference between us and them is that we are the smarter species, just like certain breeds of dogs are smarter than others. Unfortunately we became smart enough to understand our own mortality, which makes us cling to religion against all common sense and evidence.

Last edited by Doc Oc; 10-01-2015 at 08:41 PM..
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      10-01-2015, 09:00 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Greek View Post
Allegedly God created everything.

QED evil came from God.
I'll just ignore the fact you didn't answer "from whence do your moral standards come?"

Evil is an interesting topic for sure, one plenty of atheists lob at Christians expecting them to not have an answer.

God didn't create evil, he allowed it to happen. His plan is to one day destroy evil (see Revelation). However, since God exists outside of time, he's already destroyed evil.

Evil (and hell) are simply defined by what they lack: God. Evil is the opposite of God's nature, where good is God's nature.
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