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      07-31-2019, 12:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Go to any urban area with a large illegal population and you will notice the enormous cost that is pass to the local government from additional waste collection, to additional staffing, classes, and entire new facility to deal with the over population, to illegal housing which can cause devaluement of property, increase fire risk, increase car insurance due to drivers being uninsured, increase hospital cost due to once again ER visit with people we can't track and bill and so on. That not even going into how they drive down wages for low skill citizens and legal immigrants.

So tell me once again how any reasonable person can say with a straight face illegals are a net benefit?
Yes..its hard to get a really objective number on the true cost. Every source seems to be displaced to the right or left. Even the CATO reports are noticeably silent on the things you mentioned. And your list is not complete (nor was it intended to be)

Those of us that pride ourselves with objectivity I believe would agree with you. Those that have an agenda won't.
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      07-31-2019, 04:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
CATO has a good opinion piece which points out the flaws of a more recent study which said illegals were a net drain on the economy as a whole.


The topic by itself is highly partisan so you're essentially asking for the impossible. You'll see what you want to see.

Let me be clear however that I said in aggregate (i.e. economy as a whole).
Go to any urban area with a large illegal population and you will notice the enormous cost that is pass to the local government from additional waste collection, to additional staffing, classes, and entire new facility to deal with the over population, to illegal housing which can cause devaluement of property, increase fire risk, increase car insurance due tosee drivers being uninsured, increase hospital cost due to once again ER visit with people we can't track and bill and so on. That not even going into how they drive down wages for low skill citizens and legal immigrants.

So tell me once again how any reasonable person can say with a straight face illegals are a net benefit?
What about all those low prices you pay for the product/services (Ex, Food, Housing, Restaurants, etc) as well as the variety provided by illegal labor? When illegals went home of the recession of 2008 many crops went to rot due to the lack of "indigenous" labor willing to work the fields. Builders have had a hellva time finding framers and such.

Prices would surely be higher but it's difficult to quantify.
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      07-31-2019, 05:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
What about all those low prices you pay for the product/services (Ex, Food, Housing, Restaurants, etc) as well as the variety provided by illegal labor? When illegals went home of the recession of 2008 many crops went to rot due to the lack of "indigenous" labor willing to work the fields. Builders have had a hellva time finding framers and such.

Prices would surely be higher but it's difficult to quantify.
So that is what it is all about for you? Cheap labor at any cost? We harvest crawfish in Louisiana and pay for our workers to come with visas... It is seasonal work... They come, they work and go back... It is called offer and demand... As far as the prices at restaurants? Why do we have to keep low wages to support illegal immigration? So you can have your 3$ burger and 50$ a night nasty room? I'd rather pay 150$/night and employ American with decent wages... but it is just me... You can not afford 150$/night? work harder or change profession... But again, just my $0.02... Thank you for your opinion... This one is just mine...
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      07-31-2019, 05:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
What about all those low prices you pay for the product/services (Ex, Food, Housing, Restaurants, etc) as well as the variety provided by illegal labor? When illegals went home of the recession of 2008 many crops went to rot due to the lack of "indigenous" labor willing to work the fields. Builders have had a hellva time finding framers and such.

Prices would surely be higher but it's difficult to quantify.
That arguement is not going to work with me as that what legal immigrants can fill if the vacuum exist.

Why are you justifying individuals and business that are involved in illegal behavior which harms all of society?
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      07-31-2019, 07:49 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
What about all those low prices you pay for the product/services (Ex, Food, Housing, Restaurants, etc) as well as the variety provided by illegal labor? When illegals went home of the recession of 2008 many crops went to rot due to the lack of "indigenous" labor willing to work the fields. Builders have had a hellva time finding framers and such.

Prices would surely be higher but it's difficult to quantify.
That arguement is not going to work with me as that what legal immigrants can fill if the vacuum exist.

Why are you justifying individuals and business that are involved in illegal behavior which harms all of society?
Yet those jobs still go unfilled.
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      07-31-2019, 07:54 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeyal View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
What about all those low prices you pay for the product/services (Ex, Food, Housing, Restaurants, etc) as well as the variety provided by illegal labor? When illegals went home of the recession of 2008 many crops went to rot due to the lack of "indigenous" labor willing to work the fields. Builders have had a hellva time finding framers and such.

Prices would surely be higher but it's difficult to quantify.
So that is what it is all about for you? Cheap labor at any cost? We harvest crawfish in Louisiana and pay for our workers to come with visas... It is seasonal work... They come, they work and go back... It is called offer and demand... As far as the prices at restaurants? Why do we have to keep low wages to support illegal immigration? So you can have your 3$ burger and 50$ a night nasty room? I'd rather pay 150$/night and employ American with decent wages... but it is just me... You can not afford 150$/night? work harder or change profession... But again, just my $0.02... Thank you for your opinion... This one is just mine...
The discussion is whether they're a net drain on the economy. You're making altruistic point.
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      07-31-2019, 07:58 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Yet those jobs still go unfilled.
You are speculating they go unfilled just bc an illegal took them. And protecting our laws and sovereignty is more important than cheap prices to me. Let them legally come on a visa and then go back=no problem
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      07-31-2019, 08:15 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Yet those jobs still go unfilled.
And yet your still justifying illegal activity, I'm sure a murder has a good reason for his action doesn't make it right nor should society tolerate it.
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      07-31-2019, 08:42 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Yet those jobs still go unfilled.
You are speculating they go unfilled just bc an illegal took them. And protecting our laws and sovereignty is more important than cheap prices to me. Let them legally come on a visa and then go back=no problem
No speculation. It's a fact. The jobs were not filled. Builders have been complaining for years about the lack of workers because young Americans aren't choosing construction as a career and the "illegals" went home.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...on-law-workers

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...backfires/amp/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...onomy.amp.html
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      07-31-2019, 08:50 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Yet those jobs still go unfilled.
And yet your still justifying illegal activity, I'm sure a murder has a good reason for his action doesn't make it right nor should society tolerate it.
Hardly.
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      07-31-2019, 09:22 PM   #55
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Are you retarded everyone justifies their actions right or wrong with some rationale. Watch every interview with a serial killer ever.
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      07-31-2019, 10:05 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
The discussion is whether they're a net drain on the economy. You're making altruistic point.
The ones on welfare and the anchor babies definitely are and if you ignore it, you definitely are a democrat
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      08-01-2019, 01:58 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
No speculation. It's a fact. The jobs were not filled. Builders have been complaining for years about the lack of workers because young Americans aren't choosing construction as a career and the "illegals" went home.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...on-law-workers

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...backfires/amp/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...onomy.amp.html
Then incentivize legal immigration and make it easier for workers to (temporarily) move to the US for such jobs. There's no reason to just accept illegal immigration because employers can't fill job positions.

And even then you would probably want to focus on getting Americans that don't have jobs, but want to work, in these positions first. You can't help others if you don't first help yourself.
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      08-01-2019, 05:15 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeyal View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
The discussion is whether they're a net drain on the economy. You're making altruistic point.
The ones on welfare and the anchor babies definitely are and if you ignore it, you definitely are a democrat
White Americans are the largest population on welfare.

Where shouldthey go?

BTW Illegals are not eligible for a lot of Federal aid like Welfare.
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      08-01-2019, 05:16 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjjkoevoets View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
No speculation. It's a fact. The jobs were not filled. Builders have been complaining for years about the lack of workers because young Americans aren't choosing construction as a career and the "illegals" went home.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...on-law-workers

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...backfires/amp/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...onomy.amp.html
Then incentivize legal immigration and make it easier for workers to (temporarily) move to the US for such jobs. There's no reason to just accept illegal immigration because employers can't fill job positions.

And even then you would probably want to focus on getting Americans that don't have jobs, but want to work, in these positions first. You can't help others if you don't first help yourself.
Agree.
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      08-01-2019, 07:50 AM   #60
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BTW Illegals are not eligible for a lot of Federal aid like Welfare.
True, but they are eligible for state aid welfare in 26 states, which is ultimately heavily subsidized by the federal government in most states (CA being a rare exception). As such, the above statement ends up false due to the eventual money trail.
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      08-01-2019, 08:19 AM   #61
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Quote:
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You are speculating they go unfilled just bc an illegal took them. And protecting our laws and sovereignty is more important than cheap prices to me. Let them legally come on a visa and then go back=no problem
No, I believe he's quoting this administration's many boasts about more job opening than people who need jobs. If you take away the illegals, that "problem" gets even more pronounced, right?

And before you climb in my ass about being an advocate for illegal immigration, I think EVERY employer in this country should have to use e-verify and we should make the financial repercussions pretty ruinous for non-compliance.
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      08-01-2019, 09:33 AM   #62
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No, I believe he's quoting this administration's many boasts about more job opening than people who need jobs. If you take away the illegals, that "problem" gets even more pronounced, right?

And before you climb in my ass about being an advocate for illegal immigration, I think EVERY employer in this country should have to use e-verify and we should make the financial repercussions pretty ruinous for non-compliance.
Even on some of our local municipality councils, there are members "opposed" to e-verify for staff. mind blown.
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      08-01-2019, 03:06 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
White Americans are the largest population on welfare.

Where shouldthey go?

BTW Illegals are not eligible for a lot of Federal aid like Welfare.
Wrong... A friend of mine just yesterday from Californica just told me a family of illegals gets 4800/month NOT including housing allowance... Please... And the Americans on welfare, well, you said it... They are Americans and the fact that they are white or black should not matter... Whites are the biggest recipients? Well, I think up to now, they are still the biggest ethnic group (around 60%)... Now, you want to go there? Let's talk incarceration... Hispanic are 16% of the population and count for 19% of the incarceration, just second to the black numbers of 13% and 40% incarcerated... Let's look after improving those numbers in our communities, fixing the inner cities problems ( by eliminating corruption - 16 or so billions in Baltimore not accounted for...etc.) so those numbers can come down before pouring more oil on the fire by overburdening the system...Anyhow, I am for looking after our countrymen and women first... I am sorry, I have children (White American) and I do care for them first and as much as I care for black American, of brownm, red, purple...etc. Am I racist? I do not think so Thank you for the civility of the post even if we disagree.
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      08-01-2019, 04:54 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
White Americans are the largest population on welfare.
Incorrect.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres...5/cb15-97.html

https://www.reference.com/government...9188762a3fe221
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      08-01-2019, 04:56 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeyal View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
White Americans are the largest population on welfare.

Where shouldthey go?

BTW Illegals are not eligible for a lot of Federal aid like Welfare.
Wrong... A friend of mine just yesterday from Californica just told me a family of illegals gets 4800/month NOT including housing allowance... Please... And the Americans on welfare, well, you said it... They are Americans and the fact that they are white or black should not matter... Whites are the biggest recipients? Well, I think up to now, they are still the biggest ethnic group (around 60%)... Now, you want to go there? Let's talk incarceration... Hispanic are 16% of the population and count for 19% of the incarceration, just second to the black numbers of 13% and 40% incarcerated... Let's look after improving those numbers in our communities, fixing the inner cities problems ( by eliminating corruption - 16 or so billions in Baltimore not accounted for...etc.) so those numbers can come down before pouring more oil on the fire by overburdening the system...Anyhow, I am for looking after our countrymen and women first... I am sorry, I have children (White American) and I do care for them first and as much as I care for black American, of brownm, red, purple...etc. Am I racist? I do not think so Thank you for the civility of the post even if we disagree.
ROFL. Oh really? $4800/mo in Federal Aid eh? Here's a list of what federal aid illegals are eligible for:

Emergency medical treatment under Medicaid if the individual meets the other eligibility requirements and the medical condition is not related to an organ transplant procedure. 

Immunizations for immunizable diseases and testing for and treatment of symptoms of communicable diseases.

Free public education for grades K-12.  

Federally subsidized school lunch and school breakfast programs for those eligible for public education under state or local law.


So, please do tell where that $4800/mo of Federal Aid comes from for those "illegals"?
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      08-01-2019, 04:59 PM   #66
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
White Americans are the largest population on welfare.
Incorrect.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres...5/cb15-97.html

https://www.reference.com/government...9188762a3fe221
I said population, not percentage.
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