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      08-21-2014, 04:59 PM   #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS135i View Post
Gotcha, in the same way the native American Indians & and Australian Aborigines are different people today as of 500 years ago, it all makes sense now!
When China eventually takes over the US in alliance with Russia the act can now be justified
Nope, thats not what I was getting to at all. Palestine was the term the British used to call the land of modern day Israel when they occupied it, it was only after they left that the modern day Palestinians adopted the name for themselves
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      08-22-2014, 07:41 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
First off, I know full and well the Palestinian people didn't materialize out of thin air. They and their ancestors have populated more or less the same lands as they do now for hundreds of years. Culturally, but not as Muslims, they have been there for even longer. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that they have been there since at or before the time of Abraham, whom I would wager was more likely an Arab than he was a man of European or Oriental extraction. Truth be told, I would consider Abraham, and all the other Jews mentioned in the Bible, Palestinian.

Indeed, were I to think it'd solve the problem, I'd argue for Israel changing its name to Palestine. It was clearly called Palestine at least as early as 5 B.C.E. and there's evidence suggesting a derivation of that name as far back as ~1200 B.C.E. Jews lived there and variously controlled it for a long time and apparently it was called Palestine in those times. The substance of what the place is today is the same regardless of whether it's called Israel or Palestine.

Yes, the U.N. have granted Palestine "observer" status and have accepted Hamas as the party controlling the government there. That is what it is and starts the way toward full nationhood, IMO. That's as it should be as go actions of the U.N.; it'd be pure folly not to provide a way for the body that represents the Palestinian people with a means to participate in the U.N. discussions affecting the Palestinian people.

Yes, they have embassies/consulates. That's necessary for a nation, or a group of people wanting to become a nation, to have "normal" avenues of dialogue and relations with other nations. And realistically, what do other nations have to gain by not providing themselves with a means to formally communicate with the body that has been elected to represent the people who live in Gaza and The West Bank?

The thing is, that Hamas doesn't comport itself like the government of a nation. They seen able only to use violent, physical force to dragoon everyone else into agreeing with them. A nation, despite whatever differences it may have with other nations, doesn't found itself on the explicit purpose of eradicating another nation. The reason is quite simple: if that "nation" were to achieve it's goal, having done so, it should close up shop and cease to be a nation.

What Hamas have outlined is the sort of thing a task force, or a non-governmental organization might define as a goal. That makes it a project not a nation. Nations have objectives that are positive and intended to make things possible for its people, not destroy things for other people. Nations do not in their founding documents declare war, holy or otherwise, on anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Thus, IMO, Hamas, and by association Palestine, do not deserve recognition as a nation unless and until they modify their documents of nationhood. Sure, they are free to craft their documents any way they see fit; I'll grant them that much. The rest of the world is also free to call "a spade a spade" and not accord Palestine the dignity of nationhood, despite giving it some of the privileges thereof.

All the best.
VERY well summed up.
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      08-22-2014, 08:44 AM   #421
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@tony20009

Your response as quoted above is fantastic. A clear example of why Hamas as a government is not recognized is right below:

http://news.msn.com/world/gaza-milit...ies-for-israel

@Petros

Check out the link above, I seriously doubt your sources would show that.
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      08-22-2014, 12:51 PM   #422
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@tony2009 - good post. One point of clarification: Abram (later re-named Abraham) was the start of both the Jews and the Arab nations. His first son was Ishmael, whom he had with his wife's Egyptian slave - her name was Hagar. The Torah/Pentateuch/Bible identifies Ishmael as the father of the Arab nations, and says "he will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand will be against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

Abraham's second son - the first with his wife - was named Isaac - and he was the father of the Jews. Those boys grew up together for some period of time, and as I understand it, both the Jews and the Muslims consider themselves inheritors of Abram/Abraham's land - which is Israel/Palestine. Hence the ill will and squabbling 4,000 years later...
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      08-22-2014, 01:19 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
Compare the size of Israel to the size of the Muslim countries and tell me if you really believe that. Losing a vote and then declaring that everybody who does not convert to your religion deserves to die is not an excuse.

Btw, the term arabs refers to Muslims, Christians, jews, and any other ethnicity that came from the Arab lands so it's not in support of Arab nationalism.
well right after they lost the vote, they declared war. they obviously felt shortchanged.
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      08-22-2014, 03:34 PM   #424
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well right after they lost the vote, they declared war. they obviously felt shortchanged.
They declared war and lost. To the Victor goes the spoils. That doesn't give them the right to murder innocent people.
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      08-22-2014, 04:03 PM   #425
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For those sympathetic to Palestinians/Hamas: Hamas=ISIS=Al Queda. What they all have in common is they seek the destruction of Jews and all secular societies. if it was up to them, you'd all be dead (unless you're a muslim), because you're an infidel. So you're either with them or against them...there is no middle road. You're either for Islamic rule or you're for freedom and self-determination.

They represent an existential threat to everyone else on the planet.

If you think your attempt to appease them will buy you mercy, then you're sorely wrong.

Lest you think I unfairly linked Palestinians to Hamas, well the Palestinians elected Hamas and support what is going on. They are complicit, which makes them all equally as guilty.
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      08-22-2014, 04:58 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
They declared war and lost. To the Victor goes the spoils. That doesn't give them the right to murder innocent people.
Exactly. They didn't get what they want through traditional war and now rely on radicalism to fight for their cause.
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      08-22-2014, 09:30 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
tony2009 - good post. One point of clarification: Abram (later re-named Abraham) was the start of both the Jews and the Arab nations. His first son was Ishmael, whom he had with his wife's Egyptian slave - her name was Hagar. The Torah/Pentateuch/Bible identifies Ishmael as the father of the Arab nations, and says "he will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand will be against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

Abraham's second son - the first with his wife - was named Isaac - and he was the father of the Jews. Those boys grew up together for some period of time, and as I understand it, both the Jews and the Muslims consider themselves inheritors of Abram/Abraham's land - which is Israel/Palestine. Hence the ill will and squabbling 4,000 years later...
TY for the compliment and for the thoughtful reply.

I fully accept and agree with what you wrote, except for one thing, and that was a key point I'd hoped to have made earlier: Arabness and Jewishness aren't mutually exclusive. One does need a specific religious affiliation to be a Jew, but one only needs the applicable ancestral lineage to be an Arab.

I do also feel that there is such a thing as Jewish culture and ethnicity, so in my mind, Jewish Arabs merely have dual ethnicity. That's exactly how I would have described Abraham/Abram; I'd call him an Arab Jew. I'd call his sons that too and I damn sure wouldn't call Ishmael an Arab Muslim because there was no such thing at the time.

On a mostly unrelated matter, to this day, I remain befuddled over the animosity between Jews and Muslims. Not only do both religions promote one's having great regard for one's parents and ancestors, they have an incredibly vast set of similarities. Culturally, be one Jewish Arab or Muslim Arab, much of what's good and positive out of both aspects of the cultures originated from the same region. It's astounding, and sad really, notwithstanding the Biblical prediction, that on the whole, that it's just impossible to find a peaceful solution.

All the best.
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      08-23-2014, 12:39 AM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
TY for the compliment and for the thoughtful reply.

I fully accept and agree with what you wrote, except for one thing, and that was a key point I'd hoped to have made earlier: Arabness and Jewishness aren't mutually exclusive. One does need a specific religious affiliation to be a Jew, but one only needs the applicable ancestral lineage to be an Arab.

I do also feel that there is such a thing as Jewish culture and ethnicity, so in my mind, Jewish Arabs merely have dual ethnicity. That's exactly how I would have described Abraham/Abram; I'd call him an Arab Jew. I'd call his sons that too and I damn sure wouldn't call Ishmael an Arab Muslim because there was no such thing at the time.

On a mostly unrelated matter, to this day, I remain befuddled over the animosity between Jews and Muslims. Not only do both religions promote one's having great regard for one's parents and ancestors, they have an incredibly vast set of similarities. Culturally, be one Jewish Arab or Muslim Arab, much of what's good and positive out of both aspects of the cultures originated from the same region. It's astounding, and sad really, notwithstanding the Biblical prediction, that on the whole, that it's just impossible to find a peaceful solution.

All the best.
Regarding the Arab/Jew thing, I believe both peoples are "semitic" - meaning they share the same language and ancestry, to a point. Over time "Anti-Semitic" is thought to be anti-Jew, but it's literally anti-anyone who speaks a Semitic language, which includes Arabs.

Agree about Islamics - that didn't come along til 600 B.C.

Also agree about a peaceful solution - but think about families where there is an out-of-wedlock child - there are often complicated, competitive issues that never go away. Seems like the same situation, and the argument is over who gets to inherit the family homestead. Kind of like Anna Nicole Smith, and that old billionaire and his family. Ok - not really like that, but maybe a little like that. Without the blonde hair and boobs. Wait - never mind.
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      08-23-2014, 03:20 AM   #429
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The cease fire is broken, Gaza is turning into rubble, who is going to fund the rebuild?
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      08-23-2014, 09:25 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by TS135i View Post
The cease fire is broken, Gaza is turning into rubble, who is going to fund the rebuild?
And who broke the ceasefire?

Who funded the rebuild last time? I bet you didn't know that Israel donated literally tons of cement and building material. The Palestinian people get billions of dollars in aid and Instead of building a lasting infrastructure they built terror tunnels and multi million dollar homes for their leaders. Israel needs to get rid of Hamas completely and a more moderate governing body who actually wants peace should be installed.
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      08-23-2014, 11:15 AM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Regarding the Arab/Jew thing, I believe both peoples are "semitic" - meaning they share the same language and ancestry, to a point. Over time "Anti-Semitic" is thought to be anti-Jew, but it's literally anti-anyone who speaks a Semitic language, which includes Arabs.

Agree about Islamics - that didn't come along til 600 B.C.

Also agree about a peaceful solution - but think about families where there is an out-of-wedlock child - there are often complicated, competitive issues that never go away. Seems like the same situation, and the argument is over who gets to inherit the family homestead. Kind of like Anna Nicole Smith, and that old billionaire and his family. Ok - not really like that, but maybe a little like that. Without the blonde hair and boobs. Wait - never mind.
I'm sure it's just a typo you make: A.D. or C.E, but not B.C. Just noting that for folks who might not actually know because there're 1200 years of difference, not to be a pedant.

No, not really like Anna Smith -- LOL -- but I get the point you're making.

All the best.
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      08-23-2014, 11:26 AM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
...

Who funded the rebuild last time? I bet you didn't know that Israel donated literally tons of cement and building material. The Palestinian people get billions of dollars in aid and Instead of building a lasting infrastructure they built terror tunnels and multi million dollar homes for their leaders. Israel needs to get rid of Hamas completely and [replace them with a] governing body who actually wants peace...
Bold: agree. The Palestinian populace, individuals, are not the problem per se. The only mistake they made was to elect Hamas, but as I said earlier, I don't fault them for doing that. At the time, I'm sure it seemed as though Hamas' approach held the promise of working where the PLO's had not yielded positive results in decades.

If/when the Palestinian people next have the opportunity to vote Hamas out of office and they fail to do so, I will hold them accountable for that. I may even alter my opinion about whether they are part of the problem.

All the best.
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      08-24-2014, 12:01 AM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Regarding the Arab/Jew thing, I believe both peoples are "semitic" - meaning they share the same language and ancestry, to a point. Over time "Anti-Semitic" is thought to be anti-Jew, but it's literally anti-anyone who speaks a Semitic language, which includes Arabs.

Agree about Islamics - that didn't come along til 600 B.C.

Also agree about a peaceful solution - but think about families where there is an out-of-wedlock child - there are often complicated, competitive issues that never go away. Seems like the same situation, and the argument is over who gets to inherit the family homestead. Kind of like Anna Nicole Smith, and that old billionaire and his family. Ok - not really like that, but maybe a little like that. Without the blonde hair and boobs. Wait - never mind.
I'm sure it's just a typo you make: A.D. or C.E, but not B.C. Just noting that for folks who might not actually know because there're 1200 years of difference, not to be a pedant.

No, not really like Anna Smith -- LOL -- but I get the point you're making.

All the best.
Yes - typo - my bad.
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      08-24-2014, 12:50 PM   #434
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Time for some levity in this topic.

Question: In a Jewish household, do the women or the men make the coffee in the morning?
Answer: He-brews, of course.



All the best.

(Apologies and thanks to Tyler Perry.)
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      08-25-2014, 12:07 AM   #435
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Where does a dictator go for quick cash? Sell the Jew-erly
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      08-25-2014, 06:43 AM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben2k9 View Post
For those sympathetic to Palestinians/Hamas: Hamas=ISIS=Al Queda. What they all have in common is they seek the destruction of Jews and all secular societies. if it was up to them, you'd all be dead (unless you're a muslim), because you're an infidel. So you're either with them or against them...there is no middle road. You're either for Islamic rule or you're for freedom and self-determination.

They represent an existential threat to everyone else on the planet.

If you think your attempt to appease them will buy you mercy, then you're sorely wrong.

Lest you think I unfairly linked Palestinians to Hamas, well the Palestinians elected Hamas and support what is going on. They are complicit, which makes them all equally as guilty.
Agreed 100%. One thing they understand is death. And it is also the only thing that will stop them.
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      08-25-2014, 12:50 PM   #437
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Agreed 100%. One thing they understand is death. And it is also the only thing that will stop them.
That's what I think it will take too, but some folks think I'm wrong for thinking that because defeating them that way would be tantamount to genocide. Curiously, genocide is effectively what the Hamas Charter mandates as the way to achieve it's very own goals.

Seems to me that if ethnic cleansing is what Hamas feel ready to dole out, they must be willing to accept and die with the prospect that their opponent will beset them with the same. Of course, Hamas and organizations like them avail themselves of the fact that they aren't clearly defined as nations.

Frankly, I wish they were a distinct nation; it'd make targeting them far simpler. Cowards like Hamas and Al Qaeda (H&A) sit safe in their hovels and palaces knowing that Israel and others won't launch a full on assault out of concern for the collateral impact, yet H&A do whatever they please, regardless of who suffers, even if it's their own people/allies.

All the best.
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      08-25-2014, 10:14 PM   #438
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Wow!

I did not read every post in this thread but of what i did see; there definitely is a lot of Islamophobia here. To equate Hamas with ISIS shows a complete lack of understanding. Whether you agree with their methods or not, Hamas is a democratically elected government. And many countries recognize this. I'll be the first acknowledge that wrongs have been committed on both sides and it isn't as black and white as most people on here make it out to be. And I do believe that Hamas would be more effective if they took a Nelson Mandela or Ghandi type of approach. However, I am not in their position and have no idea what it feels like to basically be a prisoner in your own home.

Lets be honest here. It starts and ends with occupation. If you don't like the word occupation, then call it a blockade or siege. Call it whatever you want; its all the same.
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      08-25-2014, 10:38 PM   #439
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For the Palestinians who live in Gaza or the West Bank:

1. How do they earn a living? Where does the income come from that funds these two areas?

2. Are they free to come-and-go as they please? Are they free to move away to somewhere else?
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      08-26-2014, 12:18 AM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Wow!

I did not read every post in this thread but of what i did see; there definitely is a lot of Islamophobia here. To equate Hamas with ISIS shows a complete lack of understanding. Whether you agree with their methods or not, Hamas is a democratically elected government. And many countries recognize this. I'll be the first acknowledge that wrongs have been committed on both sides and it isn't as black and white as most people on here make it out to be. And I do believe that Hamas would be more effective if they took a Nelson Mandela or Ghandi type of approach. However, I am not in their position and have no idea what it feels like to basically be a prisoner in your own home.

Lets be honest here. It starts and ends with occupation. If you don't like the word occupation, then call it a blockade or siege. Call it whatever you want; its all the same.
Isn't that part of the problem: semantics and spin being "accepted" rather than common sense being applied? Call it a blockade and it's an overt act of war, but apparently an occupation is not.

All the best.
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