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BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Off-Topic Discussions Board Politics/Religion Was this racism, possibly racism, or something else afoot?

View Poll Results: What do you think was afoot
Racism 5 33.33%
Quite possibly racism, but I don't know for sure 7 46.67%
Most likely not racism 1 6.67%
Definitely not racism 2 13.33%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-18-2015, 03:38 PM   #1
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Was this racism, possibly racism, or something else afoot?

This isn't a recent event, but all the same, I think it illustrates what many minorities know to be the reality with which they must live, if not daily, often enough that it can't merely a simple mistake.






http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswit...38-000-handbag

All the best.

Edit:
The post immediately below wasn't off the mark when it was made. The link didn't exist when he saw the post. That it didn't was my oversight.
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      09-18-2015, 03:39 PM   #2
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is this about the hands up dont shoot?

Or about that old black women have wigs?

Edit: didnt see the link, but the picture has nothing to do with this story fyi

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      09-18-2015, 03:42 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csu87 View Post
is this about the hands up dont shoot?

Or about that old black women have wigs?
Neither
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      09-18-2015, 04:07 PM   #4
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I know my mother won't touch an item unless she buys it - she'll never ask just to touch something. May things have been different if O said she wanted to buy as opposed to 'seeing'?
But I know racisim is rampant, but the fact these stories hit the news is rediculous - it's not that important.
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      09-18-2015, 05:18 PM   #5
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I have gone through the exact same thing, and I look pretty white (part Asian). The "oh, that bag's very expensive, let me show you something else," the works. They could have been racist, but I notice that how I'm dressed that day and whether I "look" wealthy has the biggest impact on whether that happens. Well, that, and whether the salesperson is capable of imagining that not all people who can afford expensive things look a certain way.
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      09-18-2015, 05:52 PM   #6
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Pretty poor report so very hard to make an informed judgement about what happened. It very well could have been racism. It could also be the shop owner instructed employees not to take down that bag and let people touch it if they were not regular customers / known by the store (and the clerk didn't recognize her). Or any number of other scenarios. No way to really know so not clear how anyone could answer "Racism" or "Most likely not" unless they are projecting other experiences or otherwise making assumptions.
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      09-18-2015, 05:53 PM   #7
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I would have thought that racism is not in the action or the words but in the state of mind of the person. If she would refuse to get the bag for anyone then its not racism. If she refuses to get the bag for anyone she believes cannot afford the bag then its not racism. If she thinks a woman can't afford the bag because she is black then obviously its racist.
I've been in plenty of Porsche dealers where the sales staff look straight through you if you didn't look the part - yet if they had seen you roll up in a 911 they would be all over you like a cheap suit.
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      09-18-2015, 08:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickFLM4 View Post
Pretty poor report so very hard to make an informed judgement about what happened. It very well could have been racism. It could also be the shop owner instructed employees not to take down that bag and let people touch it if they were not regular customers / known by the store (and the clerk didn't recognize her). Or any number of other scenarios. No way to really know so not clear how anyone could answer "Racism" or "Most likely not" unless they are projecting other experiences or otherwise making assumptions.
Blue:
I agree that the details provided in the article aren't conclusive or comprehensive enough to take to a courtroom.

I'm just asking folks to offer their opinion based on how they have experienced the world and people in it. It's definitely a "based on one's best judgement" kind of question given that there are surely missing details.

Even Oprah didn't go as far as expressly positing that racism may have had something to do with how she was treated. According to CNN, "While Winfrey did not specifically identify the shopping trip as a racist experience, she described the incident when asked about her encounters with racism during an interview."

Red:
That is certainly plausible, and for leathergoods, not altogether unreasonalbe to a certain extent at least. Given that the retailer/manager didn't offer that in exculpation of the clerk, I doubt that, or any other express instruction akin to it from the store's management, was in play, particularly in light of the incredibly lame excuse the store manager did put forth.

The statement the store manager made was more "out there" than I think even Taylor Coleridge would have accepted in similar circumstances. My ex-wife is Swiss, so I understand how the Swiss have a very precise diction and interpretations at times. That said, if I were a clerk and I genuinely believed a customer really just wanted to look at an item, I'd have said something on the order of "Okay, well, it's free to look. Help yourself and enjoy. Holler if you'd like a closer look than you can get from in front of the counter." What I wouldn't have do is try to direct the customer to another item in which s/he has expressed no interest whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSinger View Post
I know my mother won't touch an item unless she buys it - she'll never ask just to touch something. May things have been different if O said she wanted to buy as opposed to 'seeing'?

But I know racisim is rampant, but the fact these stories hit the news is rediculous [sic] - it's not that important.
Red:
Okay....Are you really asking us/me to believe that your mother has purchased every purse, dress, shirt/blouse, skirt, etc. she laid her hands on? I find that really hard to believe, even though I don't know you or your mother, and, yes, I realize it's not 100% impossible for your claim about her behavior to be 100% accurate. Your mother could be an unrepentant and uncured shopaholic, or something of that sort, and if that's so, I get why she buys every damn thing she puts her hands on.

Sidebar:
If indeed your claim is fully "on point," I'm truly curious....does your mother experience vast amounts of buyer's remorse, or does she genuinely like and enjoy every single thing she touches? I've often wondered just what it's like to buy that much stuff as might a shopaholic.
End sidebar.

Just to offer a different perspective, I only rarely buy something that I haven't experienced personally. I don't buy purses much, but I bought a "man bag" to use in the PRC. If that experience was anything like a lady's buying a purse, "trying it on for size" is absolutely what I think every woman would do with a handbag with which she isn't already familiar. I've bought other small, leather, personal items like briefcases, backpacks, luggage, wallets, tablet folders, belts, scores of garments, and so on. I've handled every one that I ever bought before I bought it. I also handled several other models the store had and that I didn't purchase.

A more typical shopping process in my mind is not unlike the one I use and described above. I think nearly everyone, your mother apparently differs, checks out -- by touch -- one or several items before they purchase them. The only broad class of items that strikes me as being slightly different is food. But even there, many are the times I've picked up, say, an apple or melon, held it and checked out another one in the bin before deciding to buy the one I first handled or the other one.

I've also been to car stores and been told that the car I asked to drive is being held with a deposit by another customer. Okay. I can understand that and why they won't let me drive it. There are any number of not even remotely inconceivable circumstances that legitimately militate for the clerk denying a customer's request to examine the item. But as implied by the store manager and the clerk's subsequent comments, no explanation resembling any of them was given, not even after the fact when the story hit the news.

Come on, now...neither I, Oprah, the clerk, nor the store manger just fell off the turnip truck. Did you?

Purple:
I'm not sure what to make of those two statements' appearance in the same sentence, even with the subordinate clause between them. The first one is quite clear, but what exactly isn't important about pointing out potential instances of unfair discrimination/generalization (or whatever one want's to term it)?

There are plenty of good reasons for such events to appear in the news:
  • Some members of majority races (in a given locality) are truly emotionally ignorant or puerile and they don't realize that their actions may seem unfairly biased even though the persons may not actually have an unfairly prejudiced bone in their body, or at least not toward the other person with whom they are interacting at that moment. People like that would benefit from boosting their awareness of how their "innocuous in their mind" actions and words may lead others to form the wrong impression of them and the people/organization with which they are associated.
  • There are people who may be quite equitable and egalitarian, but who don't realize just how widespread is racism and the discrimination and mistreatment borne of it. How else are they going to realize that there is a real problem if they don't learn of it's happening on a regular basis?
  • There are outright racists and apologists for racists. How is one to know who they might be, or that they even exist if the conversation about racism never occurs?
I agree with you that Oprah, or anyone else's not being able to purchase a luxury item like a purse isn't that important. I am convinced, however, that it is important that as a society, as humans, we are kept aware of things such as what happened to Oprah. What if, for example, it wasn't a silly purse that cost more than anyone ever needs to spend for one, but instead were a necessary good or service of some sort that's only available in limited quanties?



Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I would have thought that racism is not in the action or the words but in the state of mind of the person. If she would refuse to get the bag for anyone then its not racism. If she refuses to get the bag for anyone she believes cannot afford the bag then its not racism. If she thinks a woman can't afford the bag because she is black then obviously it's racist.

...
Orange:
Yes, you're right. Racism is a state of mind. People having that as part of their mindset commit discriminatory acts. I could indeed have been more precise in the way I presented the issue/topic.

Pink:
Yes, that'd be my thinking as well. Indeed, it'd be any rational thinking person's take were that hypothetically or actually so. Similarly, were it so, it'd be a reasonable thing to say after the fact. Something like "We get a lot of 'looky-loos' in the boutique and our clerks are asked to try to make a reasonable judgement call about whether the person before them can afford the item they want to buy." I'm sure in U.S. a statement to that effect would rile a lot of feathers, but at least it's more responsible and has more plausible credibility than the substance of what the store's manager did say which was essentially that the clerk thought Oprah just wanted to observe the bag as it sat on the shelf this while the clerk was happy to show the customer an entirely different item.

In truth, when I read the comments of the clerk and manager, I couldn't help but think that one of them was lying, and the other was swearing to it.

All the best.
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      09-18-2015, 08:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Blue:
I agree that the details provided in the article aren't conclusive or comprehensive enough to take to a courtroom.

I'm just asking folks to offer their opinion based on how they have experienced the world and people in it. It's definitely a "based on one's best judgement" kind of question given that there are surely missing details.

Even Oprah didn't go as far as expressly positing that racism may have had something to do with how she was treated. According to CNN, "While Winfrey did not specifically identify the shopping trip as a racist experience, she described the incident when asked about her encounters with racism during an interview."

Red:
That is certainly plausible, and for leathergoods, not altogether unreasonalbe to a certain extent at least. Given that the retailer/manager didn't offer that in exculpation of the clerk, I doubt that, or any other express instruction akin to it from the store's management, was in play, particularly in light of the incredibly lame excuse the store manager did put forth.

The statement the store manager made was more "out there" than I think even Taylor Coleridge would have accepted in similar circumstances. My ex-wife is Swiss, so I understand how the Swiss have a very precise diction and interpretations at times. That said, if I were a clerk and I genuinely believed a customer really just wanted to look at an item, I'd have said something on the order of "Okay, well, it's free to look. Help yourself and enjoy. Holler if you'd like a closer look than you can get from in front of the counter." What I wouldn't have do is try to direct the customer to another item in which s/he has expressed no interest whatsoever.



Red:
Okay....Are you really asking us/me to believe that your mother has purchased every purse, dress, shirt/blouse, skirt, etc. she laid her hands on? I find that really hard to believe, even though I don't know you or your mother, and, yes, I realize it's not 100% impossible for your claim about her behavior to be 100% accurate. Your mother could be an unrepentant and uncured shopaholic, or something of that sort, and if that's so, I get why she buys every damn thing she puts her hands on.

Sidebar:
If indeed your claim is fully "on point," I'm truly curious....does your mother experience vast amounts of buyer's remorse, or does she genuinely like and enjoy every single thing she touches? I've often wondered just what it's like to buy that much stuff as might a shopaholic.
End sidebar.

Just to offer a different perspective, I only rarely buy something that I haven't experienced personally. I don't buy purses much, but I bought a "man bag" to use in the PRC. If that experience was anything like a lady's buying a purse, "trying it on for size" is absolutely what I think every woman would do with a handbag with which she isn't already familiar. I've bought other small, leather, personal items like briefcases, backpacks, luggage, wallets, tablet folders, belts, scores of garments, and so on. I've handled every one that I ever bought before I bought it. I also handled several other models the store had and that I didn't purchase.

A more typical shopping process in my mind is not unlike the one I use and described above. I think nearly everyone, your mother apparently differs, checks out -- by touch -- one or several items before they purchase them. The only broad class of items that strikes me as being slightly different is food. But even there, many are the times I've picked up, say, an apple or melon, held it and checked out another one in the bin before deciding to buy the one I first handled or the other one.

I've also been to car stores and been told that the car I asked to drive is being held with a deposit by another customer. Okay. I can understand that and why they won't let me drive it. There are any number of not even remotely inconceivable circumstances that legitimately militate for the clerk denying a customer's request to examine the item. But as implied by the store manager and the clerk's subsequent comments, no explanation resembling any of them was given, not even after the fact when the story hit the news.

Come on, now...neither I, Oprah, the clerk, nor the store manger just fell off the turnip truck. Did you?

Purple:
I'm not sure what to make of those two statements' appearance in the same sentence, even with the subordinate clause between them. The first one is quite clear, but what exactly isn't important about pointing out potential instances of unfair discrimination/generalization (or whatever one want's to term it)?

There are plenty of good reasons for such events to appear in the news:
  • Some members of majority races (in a given locality) are truly emotionally ignorant or puerile and they don't realize that their actions may seem unfairly biased even though the persons may not actually have an unfairly prejudiced bone in their body, or at least not toward the other person with whom they are interacting at that moment. People like that would benefit from boosting their awareness of how their "innocuous in their mind" actions and words may lead others to form the wrong impression of them and the people/organization with which they are associated.
  • There are people who may be quite equitable and egalitarian, but who don't realize just how widespread is racism and the discrimination and mistreatment borne of it. How else are they going to realize that there is a real problem if they don't learn of it's happening on a regular basis?
  • There are outright racists and apologists for racists. How is one to know who they might be, or that they even exist if the conversation about racism never occurs?
I agree with you that Oprah, or anyone else's not being able to purchase a luxury item like a purse isn't that important. I am convinced, however, that it is important that as a society, as humans, we are kept aware of things such as what happened to Oprah. What if, for example, it wasn't a silly purse that cost more than anyone ever needs to spend for one, but instead were a necessary good or service of some sort that's only available in limited quanties?





Orange:
Yes, you're right. Racism is a state of mind. People having that as part of their mindset commit discriminatory acts. I could indeed have been more precise in the way I presented the issue/topic.

Pink:
Yes, that'd be my thinking as well. Indeed, it'd be any rational thinking person's take were that hypothetically or actually so. Similarly, were it so, it'd be a reasonable thing to say after the fact. Something like "We get a lot of 'looky-loos' in the boutique and our clerks are asked to try to make a reasonable judgement call about whether the person before them can afford the item they want to buy." I'm sure in U.S. a statement to that effect would rile a lot of feathers, but at least it's more responsible and has more plausible credibility than the substance of what the store's manager did say which was essentially that the clerk thought Oprah just wanted to observe the bag as it sat on the shelf this while the clerk was happy to show the customer an entirely different item.

In truth, when I read the comments of the clerk and manager, I couldn't help but think that one of them was lying, and the other was swearing to it.

All the best.
Do you ever have any posts that are shorter than War and Peace
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      09-18-2015, 08:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Do you ever have any posts that are shorter than War and Peace
yes
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      09-18-2015, 08:59 PM   #11
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Red:
"Okay....Are you really asking us/me to believe that your mother has purchased every purse, dress, shirt/blouse, skirt, etc. she laid her hands on? I find that really hard to believe, even though I don't know you or your mother, and, yes, I realize it's not 100% impossible for your claim about her behavior to be 100% accurate. Your mother could be an unrepentant and uncured shopaholic, or something of that sort, and if that's so, I get why she buys every damn thing she puts her hands on". From Tony20009



Tony20009

No she definitely handles clothing on the rack or out on the floor - but she never ask to have anything taken out of a case or handed to her from behind the counter.

Scott
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      09-18-2015, 09:01 PM   #12
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I really need to be there to see it was discrimination or enforcing store policy.

I don't care if someone can afford the shit or not. There are some franchise stores/dealership which they don't test drive the car.

"Oh, you know me, I have $21b in Icahn enterprise, I want to drive that Ferrari Enzo and FXX< i wanna see it! I demand it!"

"I know it is only a display model, but I demand to take the Formula 1 Ferrari F2004 for a test drive!

If someone said that shit at a dealership, Enzo Ferrari will wake up from grave and beat the shit out of him.

I don't give a flying b-ass-fak that buyer is Carl Icahn or Donald Trumphet.



Now, if you ask nicely like I did, Benetton store (16 yrs ago) let me get on a F1 display car which was driven by Schumacher.
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      09-18-2015, 09:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSinger View Post
Red:
"Okay....Are you really asking us/me to believe that your mother has purchased every purse, dress, shirt/blouse, skirt, etc. she laid her hands on? I find that really hard to believe, even though I don't know you or your mother, and, yes, I realize it's not 100% impossible for your claim about her behavior to be 100% accurate. Your mother could be an unrepentant and uncured shopaholic, or something of that sort, and if that's so, I get why she buys every damn thing she puts her hands on". From Tony20009



Tony20009

No she definitely handles clothing on the rack or out on the floor - but she never ask to have anything taken out of a case or handed to her from behind the counter.

Scott
Okay. TY for the clarification.

All the best.
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      09-19-2015, 03:38 AM   #14
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While on the subject:
How about this phrase used in reference to a poster on M3post with an Arabic sounding name:
"Looks like someone is peanut butter and jealous of us pale skins. They hate us cause they ain't us"
Was I mistaken to take this as racist?
Apparently contains a mangled quote from the film "The Interview"....does that make it ok?
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      09-19-2015, 09:29 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
While on the subject:
How about this phrase used in reference to a poster on M3post with an Arabic sounding name:
"Looks like someone is peanut butter and jealous of us pale skins. They hate us cause they ain't us"
Was I mistaken to take this as racist?
Apparently contains a mangled quote from the film "The Interview"....does that make it ok?
Lol get off it. Stop acting like a british bitch
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      09-19-2015, 10:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants
While on the subject:
How about this phrase used in reference to a poster on M3post with an Arabic sounding name:
"Looks like someone is peanut butter and jealous of us pale skins. They hate us cause they ain't us"
Was I mistaken to take this as racist?
Apparently contains a mangled quote from the film "The Interview"....does that make it ok?
.
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      09-19-2015, 10:29 AM   #17
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Seems like racial profiling. That's okay I think it's quite normal behavior these days. As much as we try not to jump to conclusions we do. First impressions/appearance means a ton.
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      09-19-2015, 11:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csu87 View Post
is this about the hands up dont shoot?

Or about that old black women have wigs?

Edit: didnt see the link, but the picture has nothing to do with this story fyi
Red:
Not your fault. I mistakenly posted the OP without including the link and you happened to be very quick to see it and respond.

Blue:
No, it doesn't directly. It's posted to give folks some idea of what Oprah looks like without makeup. Here're are a few more, though I think the one I included in the OP is may be a fairer representation of what she may have looked like going shopping without her "face" on.






The point of including a photo of Oprah without her "face" was merely to give folks a frame of reference. I know were I to see Oprah (or a great many other celebs) without her artifice, I might not recognize her, but whether I do or not shouldn't have a darn thing to do with whether, were I a sales clerk at a posh store, I would show her an item she asked to see.

Oprah isn't alone in not being all that recognizable without makeup. It's pretty common (to me at least) for that to be so with female celebs.

Rhianna


A bunch of female celebs whom I'd probably never recognize unless I know them well enough to see them routinely without makeup.



It's less so with well known politicians and celebrity men seeing as neither wear all that much tranformationally applied makeup.



For men, the makeup is applied more to make them look more youthful, but not to totally change the way they look. Of course being very goodlooking to begin with helps cut down on how transformational any makeup job will be.

Humor:
Perhaps makeup is why many celebrity marriages don't last? Maybe the husbands wake up one day and think, "Who the hell are you, why are you in my bed, and what did you did with my wife?"

From that perspective, we regular folks who date other regular folks have an easier time deciding whether we like our companion's looks.

All the best.
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      09-19-2015, 12:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Do you ever have any posts that are shorter than War and Peace
Sorry to say I'm with you on this opinion. I was ready to participate in the thread but then saw that it's Tony and one of his seemingly never-ending psychological internet thread experiments.
No offense Tony....
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      09-19-2015, 12:29 PM   #20
tony20009
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Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blksnowflake View Post
Sorry to say I'm with you on this opinion. I was ready to participate in the thread but then saw that it's Tony and one of his seemingly never-ending psychological internet thread experiments.
No offense Tony....
Really?

This strikes you as "seemingly never ending?" (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...69&postcount=1)

FWIW, I don't write long posts in response to well reasoned and expressed comments.

All the best.
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Cheers,
Tony

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'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
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