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      05-05-2015, 02:44 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
And what are you arguing - that Iran is/could be persuing them, possibly in secrect, when NO INTELLIGENCE EVEN SUGGESTS THAT? Do you understand why I'm being dismissive?
Intelligence assessments have indicated that Iran:
- attempted to build nuclear weapons in the past.

- has the technological capability to to produce them in the near (3-12 month time frame) future, should it choose to do so.

- has the ballistic missile capability to deliver such nukes

The whole reason this deal is being worked on is because everyone in the international community is worried that Iran may try to build nuclear weapons in the future. Otherwise if there was no concern that Iran might try and build nukes at some point, what is the point behind the arms control treaty that the US and others are currently trying to negotiate with Iran?

What is there to dismiss on your part? Everyone, except Iran and yourself, acknowledges that threat of a nuclear-armed Iran is a serious one to regional and international peace and needs to be dealt with before it comes to fruition.

Did the Ayatollahs hire you to lobby on car forums on their behalf??
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      05-05-2015, 02:59 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Intelligence assessments have indicated that Iran:
- attempted to build nuclear weapons in the past.


As of 2003, they weren't nor did they have any plans to resume their nuclear program

- has the technological capability to to produce them in the near (3-12 month time frame) future, should it choose to do so.

Should they choose, which nothing indicates that they have

- has the ballistic missile capability to deliver such nukes

Iran has always had ballistic missiles.

The whole reason this deal is being worked on is because everyone in the international community is worried that Iran may try to build nuclear weapons in the future. Otherwise if there was no concern that Iran might try and build nukes at some point, what is the point behind the arms control treaty that the US and others are currently trying to negotiate with Iran?

May is the reason. Not that they are, not that they will - MAY. And US stepping in now is better than Israel destabilizing the whole region by using one of theirs to "preemptively strike" Iran.

What is there to dismiss on your part? Everyone, except Iran and yourself, acknowledges that threat of a nuclear-armed Iran is a serious one to regional and international peace and needs to be dealt with before it comes to fruition.

Did the Ayatollahs hire you to lobby on car forums on their behalf??
LOL, that's what it is.
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      05-05-2015, 03:16 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
As of 2003, they weren't nor did they have any plans to resume their nuclear program

If you read the Senate Intel reports, which both you and I posted on this thread, you'll see that Iranian intentions to build nuclear bombs were unknown.

Remember the quote from page 5 of that 2012 report:

Quote:
We assess Iran is keeping open the option to develop nuclear weapons, in part by developing various nuclear capabilities that better position it to produce such weapons, should it choose to do so . We do not know, however, if Iran will eventually decide to build nuclear weapons.
And again, if we were absolutely sure Iran had no intentions of resuming its nuclear weapons program, why would this treaty even be necessary? You keep avoiding that question like the plague...

Also Iran has only built up its ballistic missile capability as of late:

http://armscontrolcenter.org/publica...sile_programs/
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      05-05-2015, 03:25 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
If you read the Senate Intel reports, which both you and I posted on this thread, you'll see that Iranian intentions to build nuclear bombs were unknown.

Remember the quote from page 5 of that 2012 report:



And again, if we were absolutely sure Iran had no intentions of resuming its nuclear weapons program, why would this treaty even be necessary? You keep avoiding that question like the plague...

Also Iran has only built up its ballistic missile capability as of late:

http://armscontrolcenter.org/publica...sile_programs/
Iran has always had ballistic missles, I think they have the most in the region.
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      05-05-2015, 03:45 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Iran has always had ballistic missles, I think they have the most in the region.
Except that during the late 80's and 90's Iran imported technology and equipment from North Korea to jumpstart their non-existent ballistic missile infrastructure...

During previous conflicts (Iran-Iraq war) Iran had relied on Russian-imported missiles.

But other than all that, I agree 100% with you...Iran has always had ballistic missiles...

http://www.cfr.org/iran/irans-ballis...program/p20425

http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/...ivery-systems/

Please keep these nuggets of knowledge coming...it gives me some humorous breaks to what would otherwise be a monotonous day...
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      05-05-2015, 05:32 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Except that during the late 80's and 90's Iran imported technology and equipment from North Korea to jumpstart their non-existent ballistic missile infrastructure...

During previous conflicts (Iran-Iraq war) Iran had relied on Russian-imported missiles.

But other than all that, I agree 100% with you...Iran has always had ballistic missiles...

http://www.cfr.org/iran/irans-ballis...program/p20425

http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/...ivery-systems/

Please keep these nuggets of knowledge coming...it gives me some humorous breaks to what would otherwise be a monotonous day...
http://armscontrolcenter.org/publica...sile_programs/

"In its 2014 Annual Threat Assessment, the Defense Intelligence Agency stated that “In addition to its growing missile and rocket inventories, Iran is seeking to enhance lethality and effectiveness of existing systems with improvements in accuracy and warhead designs […] Iran’s Simorgh space launch vehicle shows the country’s intent to develop intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) technology.” Iran has invested at least $1 billion in its missile programs since 2000, according to “Iran's Ballistic Missile Capabilities: A Net Assessment.”
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      05-05-2015, 07:34 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
nailed it right on the head. was going to post the same same exact thing.

how can you trust somebody with nukes when they dont care if their own people die?
A bit like the case in US of America. How can you trust USA as world peace keeper when they actively kill their own people?
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      05-11-2015, 10:46 AM   #140
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I love how a lot or Americans think people in the Middle east hate you because of your way of life, or your freedoms.
as someone from the middle east, I can tell you they hate you because you keep interfering in their region, supporting their enemy, and supporting corrupt regimes to further your own interests.
proof of this is, do a quick google search about the way arabs felt towards the USA prior to 1948 (the year Israel was created)

I also love how most Americans are brainwashed into saying Israel is your biggest ally, most politicians say "I love Israel" during any political campaign. The reason they say that is for campaign funding...
give me 5 reasons why you think Israel is your biggest ally?
an ally does not get caught spying on you more than any other country.

your biggest ally is the UK, NOT Israel
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      05-11-2015, 11:09 AM   #141
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I thought our biggest ally was Mexico, they keep sending us all their best citizens
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      05-12-2015, 07:48 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I love how a lot or Americans think people in the Middle east hate you because of your way of life, or your freedoms.
as someone from the middle east, I can tell you they hate you because you keep interfering in their region, supporting their enemy, and supporting corrupt regimes to further your own interests.
proof of this is, do a quick google search about the way arabs felt towards the USA prior to 1948 (the year Israel was created)

I also love how most Americans are brainwashed into saying Israel is your biggest ally, most politicians say "I love Israel" during any political campaign. The reason they say that is for campaign funding...
give me 5 reasons why you think Israel is your biggest ally?
an ally does not get caught spying on you more than any other country.

your biggest ally is the UK, NOT Israel
Definitely some truth.
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      05-23-2015, 11:56 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I love how a lot or Americans think people in the Middle east hate you because of your way of life, or your freedoms.
as someone from the middle east, I can tell you they hate you because you keep interfering in their region, supporting their enemy, and supporting corrupt regimes to further your own interests.
proof of this is, do a quick google search about the way arabs felt towards the USA prior to 1948 (the year Israel was created)

I also love how most Americans are brainwashed into saying Israel is your biggest ally, most politicians say "I love Israel" during any political campaign. The reason they say that is for campaign funding...
give me 5 reasons why you think Israel is your biggest ally?
an ally does not get caught spying on you more than any other country.

your biggest ally is the UK, NOT Israel
To add to this, Australia in more ways than one is a bigger ally than Israel, we are currently fighting along side the US in the Middle East, technically engaged in a war to a common enemy (not that I really agree with it)
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      05-26-2015, 11:44 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post

your biggest ally is the UK, NOT Israel


Canada reporting for duty.

Pretty much all wars and largest trading partner.
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      05-27-2015, 05:08 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I love how a lot or Americans think people in the Middle east hate you because of your way of life, or your freedoms.
as someone from the middle east, I can tell you they hate you because you keep interfering in their region, supporting their enemy, and supporting corrupt regimes to further your own interests.
proof of this is, do a quick google search about the way arabs felt towards the USA prior to 1948 (the year Israel was created)

I also love how most Americans are brainwashed into saying Israel is your biggest ally, most politicians say "I love Israel" during any political campaign. The reason they say that is for campaign funding...
give me 5 reasons why you think Israel is your biggest ally?
an ally does not get caught spying on you more than any other country.

your biggest ally is the UK, NOT Israel
What Middle Eastern country, besides Israel, has been stable US allies over the last ~60 years?

Answer: Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait.

We ally with the countries that are able to serve as stable/reliable partners (for trade and military purposes). The one big difference between Israel and the rest of these countries: Israel is a democracy.

We put up with rich, hypocritical Saudi (insert any Arab country here, execpt for Jordan) royals because we need the oil to keep flowing (to keep the world prices stable).

We put up with Israel because there is a huge Jewish lobby in this country and because the Middle East will suck that much worst if the only democracy out there is allowed to go under.
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      05-28-2015, 10:38 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
What Middle Eastern country, besides Israel, has been stable US allies over the last ~60 years?

Answer: Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait.

We ally with the countries that are able to serve as stable/reliable partners (for trade and military purposes). The one big difference between Israel and the rest of these countries: Israel is a democracy.

We put up with rich, hypocritical Saudi (insert any Arab country here, execpt for Jordan) royals because we need the oil to keep flowing (to keep the world prices stable).

We put up with Israel because there is a huge Jewish lobby in this country and because the Middle East will suck that much worst if the only democracy out there is allowed to go under.
Israel is not a democracy
when your laws favour one sect vs another, that's not a democracy
arab Israelis are treated like second class citizens
any jew, from any country is given the Israelis citizenship if he/she applies
most Palestinians are not granted the same rights.
the "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east" line is popular in the media
but is not true.

this is not just my viewpoint, but one shared with the US State department

and I disagree about the middle east being worse off without Israel
look back at the middle east prior to 1948 and see how good it was
most of the wars in that time were between the arabs and the brits or the French
basically wars of independence from UK and france
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      05-28-2015, 11:24 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Israel is not a democracy
when your laws favour one sect vs another, that's not a democracy
arab Israelis are treated like second class citizens
Look we can argue about the status of Israeli arabs until the mods shut this thread down or the sky falls. Arguments go both ways on that issue.

And though it is wrong to treat someone differently because of religious/ethnic identity, second class citizens in Israel are still far better off than the average citizen in most other countries in the Middle East.

Israeli Arabs = legal/political discrimination (or so the argument goes)
Ethnic minority in any other Arab country = rape, murder, imprisonment, ect. There used to be tens of thousands of Christians and Jews living in Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Algeria, ect. Those numbers have dwindled to almost non-existent populations due to the human rights abuses that have taken place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
and I disagree about the middle east being worse off without Israel
look back at the middle east prior to 1948 and see how good it was
most of the wars in that time were between the arabs and the brits or the French
basically wars of independence from UK and france
The Middle East seemed more stable prior to 1948 because of the authoritarian rule that was imposed in most of the region: by the European colonial regimes in the 1920's and by the Ottomans before that. The reality is that there has always been tribal and religious divisions that existed in that region.

And for the record, most conflicts in the Middle East post 1948 have had very little to do with Israel: Iran-Iraq war, numerous regime changes/revolts in Iraq, Syria, Egypt (to name a few), Yemeni civil wars, 1st Gulf War (and Massacre of Kurds and Sunnis following that conflict), Arab Spring (and resulting civil strife in Egypt, Syria, Libya)...I could go on, but you should get the point by now.
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      05-31-2015, 07:24 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Look we can argue about the status of Israeli arabs until the mods shut this thread down or the sky falls. Arguments go both ways on that issue.

And though it is wrong to treat someone differently because of religious/ethnic identity, second class citizens in Israel are still far better off than the average citizen in most other countries in the Middle East.

Israeli Arabs = legal/political discrimination (or so the argument goes)
Ethnic minority in any other Arab country = rape, murder, imprisonment, ect. There used to be tens of thousands of Christians and Jews living in Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Algeria, ect. Those numbers have dwindled to almost non-existent populations due to the human rights abuses that have taken place.



The Middle East seemed more stable prior to 1948 because of the authoritarian rule that was imposed in most of the region: by the European colonial regimes in the 1920's and by the Ottomans before that. The reality is that there has always been tribal and religious divisions that existed in that region.

And for the record, most conflicts in the Middle East post 1948 have had very little to do with Israel: Iran-Iraq war, numerous regime changes/revolts in Iraq, Syria, Egypt (to name a few), Yemeni civil wars, 1st Gulf War (and Massacre of Kurds and Sunnis following that conflict), Arab Spring (and resulting civil strife in Egypt, Syria, Libya)...I could go on, but you should get the point by now.
Well the main issue with the middle east, compared to Europe
Is that the borders are not resolved borders
Meaning the borders were not set based on agreements between the relevant parties
But were set by the colonial powers, and they made sure not to draw the lines cleanly, so there were would always be struggles between the countries
Look at map of egypt
The left and bottom borders are ruler straight
Splitting tribes, making sure 2 competing tribes were placed in the same country etc

There are still millions of Christians living in Egypt
They range from 10-15% of the population
So you're talking 9-14 million people
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      06-03-2015, 11:20 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
There are still millions of Christians living in Egypt
They range from 10-15% of the population
So you're talking 9-14 million people
Misspoke in regards to the Christian population, I was referring to Jewish populations. There are only about 29k Jewish people left living in Arab countries.

As for Christians, though there are far more still living in Arab countries (Millions more), their populations have drastically decreased over the last 40-50 years:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/27/middle...y-middle-east/

My point in bringing all this up, is to show that Israel is a much more stable and peaceful place for people (including Muslims) to live...there is far less persecution, far less human rights abuses, and far less intolerance of ethnic minorities.

That's why Israel's population consists of 1.6 Million ethnic Arabs (20% of the overall population) and that's why between 1993-2003 nearly 140k Palestinians moved back into Israel (part of a family re-unification program).

http://www.cbs.gov.il/www/hodaot2013n/11_13_097e.pdf

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?Do...4&CategoryId=4

So while I don't always agree with Israel's actions, I do acknowledge them to be the only truly democratic and stable country in the Middle East. People like you try to demonize this country as the root of all evil in the Middle East. The fact of the matter is that the majority of conflicts/bloodshed in the Middle East has been perpetrated by Arab governments/groups against their own citizens or rival governments.
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      06-03-2015, 03:12 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Misspoke in regards to the Christian population, I was referring to Jewish populations. There are only about 29k Jewish people left living in Arab countries.

As for Christians, though there are far more still living in Arab countries (Millions more), their populations have drastically decreased over the last 40-50 years:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/27/middle...y-middle-east/

My point in bringing all this up, is to show that Israel is a much more stable and peaceful place for people (including Muslims) to live...there is far less persecution, far less human rights abuses, and far less intolerance of ethnic minorities.

That's why Israel's population consists of 1.6 Million ethnic Arabs (20% of the overall population) and that's why between 1993-2003 nearly 140k Palestinians moved back into Israel (part of a family re-unification program).

http://www.cbs.gov.il/www/hodaot2013n/11_13_097e.pdf

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?Do...4&CategoryId=4

So while I don't always agree with Israel's actions, I do acknowledge them to be the only truly democratic and stable country in the Middle East. People like you try to demonize this country as the root of all evil in the Middle East. The fact of the matter is that the majority of conflicts/bloodshed in the Middle East has been perpetrated by Arab governments/groups against their own citizens or rival governments.
all jews living in occupied lands can vote
all arabs can't, that's roughly 2.5 million people, who don't have a right to vote simply because of their race. democracy?
sorry but that is as much a democracy as the US was when it was only whites who could vote.

they might be the only stable country on the area, but if the US had given as much funding and support to any other country in the area
it would have been as stable
so I don't think you can give that much credit to Israel, as much as you can to the US.

regarding the 140K Palestinians that moved back due to the family re-unification plan. that's still wrong
ANY jew living ANYWHERE on this planet, can go to Israel and gain the citizenship. for arabs, you had to have been related to someone inside to get this
and I am sure you had to jump through hoops to get it.
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      07-15-2015, 05:06 AM   #151
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Ok most of you have heard the news by now,
six nations including the US have finally brokered a deal with Iran over their uranium enrichment program.
Our friend Benjamin didn't like the outcome, surprise surprise...
He is still flogging a dead horse while the rest of the world is trying to peacefully move forward .
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      07-15-2015, 05:22 AM   #152
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I was watching the news and saw he recently declared in the US that Iran and ISIS are one and the same because they both use the title Islamic... This man is a nut case, luckily in Australia we have laws that prohibit people from defaming religion in that manor, I was shocked he was able to get away with such a speech.
I believe Iran is helping the US and other nations to eliminate ISIS.
In Australia we have laws against people defaming religion?

I fucking hope that's bullshit. Religion is the bane of human existance and it needs to be eradicated.

How's that for an Australian defaming religion? What's going to happen to me now?
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      07-15-2015, 06:17 AM   #153
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In Australia we have laws against people defaming religion?

I fucking hope that's bullshit. Religion is the bane of human existance and it needs to be eradicated.

How's that for an Australian defaming religion? What's going to happen to me now?
Our new Data Retention goon just read your post, they might secretly put you on their database haha.
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      07-15-2015, 06:33 AM   #154
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Our new Data Retention goon just read your post, they might secretly put you on their database haha.
I just watched a documentary last night on people who thought they were "targeted individuals"

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