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View Poll Results: Which would you rather have at your place of work
All weapons are banned - no one has any 30 29.70%
Private security unarmed - non lethal only 4 3.96%
Private security armed - firearms 20 19.80%
weapons allowed by all employees (cannot say who gets them or does not get them) 11 10.89%
weapons allowed by employees with certification class 36 35.64%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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      08-31-2015, 08:06 PM   #111
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Man, go out of town for a few days and pages of new material show up.

Tasers are a wonderful tool for subduing someone. Someone who's the right distance away from you; to allow for barb separation. Someone who isn't wearing thick or loose clothing; since the barbs aren't very long and can't penetrate thick clothing and aren't propelled with enough energy to continue with enough force to penetrate skin after hitting a barrier of even thin clothing.

Ever see a video of a cop taser a suspect holding an edged weapon or a firearm? There are reasons that you haven't and they are listed above.

Edged weapons are absolutely horrible to deal with from a defensive position. Even when armed with a gun and the assailant armed with a knife is 20' away, there is a very good chance you are going to need a direct ride to the hospital after that encounter. Even a minor looking knife wound can be fatal in a matter of minutes. I remember a stabbing death where the girlfriend stabbed the boyfriend in the heat of an argument. The wound was deemed superficial by both parties involved because the knife barely penetrated the skin. Turns out the tip of the knife nicked the artery in his neck and he died about 12 minutes after the incident. Even small knife woulds can cause death, and quickly at that. There are several places on the human body where a slash of a knife with little pressure can render a debilitating and or deadly wound.

I carry a gun every day, just like hundreds of thousands of other law abiding citizens. I hope are pray that i never have to resort to using it. Same goes for the fire extinguisher in my house and office, i hope we never have to deploy those. Kind of curious though, what are the odds of being killed in a fire vs being shot to death? Going by the anti-gun crowd's worked over statistics, my money is on being shot to death bring the higher odds. So if my odds of being killed by a fire is lower than being shot to death, why does the governments in this country require fire extinguishers to be located strategically throughout public buildings. And why doesn't the government require that the occupants of those buildings be trained on how to fight fires with said extinguishers? My guess is that the government knows that fire departments, as heroic as they are, can't always get to a fire soon enough.

Something i'm also curious about, and i'm sure it has to do with TV and other forms of entertainment. But what makes everyone think that Bob, your otherwise law abiding coworker will all of a sudden be ok with breaking those laws he's currently abided by in order to murder of his jack ass coworkers, just from owning a gun, or having one in the office? This leads me to believe that some people are of the wildly inappropriate opinion that by owning a gun, people become unstable or less likely to abide by the current laws.

I for one don't advocate leaving any firearm unsecured anywhere, so leaving something in your desk is out of the question; unless your office is locked 100% of the time you aren't in it and you are the only one with a key. But even then, if a theft occurs, you've just put one more illegal gun into circulation.

But i feel that office workers should be able to do as they please with regards to firearms as long as what they please falls within the governing laws of that state, county and city. I would personally never work for a company that restricts my ability to protect myself.


Back to knives for a second, there is a video out there of about 7 cops in a south american country who all confront a single suspect with a single knife. These cops have him surrounded and several of the cops have their guns drawn before the suspect cracks under the police moving closer to him. It about 8 seconds, he mortally wounded 2 of the officers and severely wounded a 3rd before anyone even gets a shot off. I don't recall whether or not he killed or wounded others. But after the suspect was finally shot, you can see and hear in the video that even after bing shot several times, he's not dead, he's still able to talk and move for the entire length of the video which is quite long.

Here is a video (granted it's old, but rule still applies) that illustrates the 21' rule for LEOs. (21' rule states that it's conceivable for a suspect armed with an edged weapon to fatally engage an officer armed with a handgun, which is holstered, within a distance of 21 feet)





So there is no way in hell that i would think twice about shooting an intruder who didn't immediately turn tail and run upon me confronting him in my home which he broke into. I don't want to shoot anyone. But even more so, i don't want to die, or worse, be wounded to the point that i can't defend my wife or family and stay alive only long enough to see them raped and or killed.

If you don't want to get shot, don't break into other peoples houses. Steal my car, bike or anything laying around my house if you need money for your drug habit, but forcibly enter other people's homes at your own peril.
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      09-01-2015, 12:58 AM   #112
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      09-01-2015, 04:48 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Man, go out of town for a few days and pages of new material show up.

Tasers are a wonderful tool for subduing someone. Someone who's the right distance away from you; to allow for barb separation. Someone who isn't wearing thick or loose clothing; since the barbs aren't very long and can't penetrate thick clothing and aren't propelled with enough energy to continue with enough force to penetrate skin after hitting a barrier of even thin clothing.

Ever see a video of a cop taser a suspect holding an edged weapon or a firearm? There are reasons that you haven't and they are listed above.

Edged weapons are absolutely horrible to deal with from a defensive position. Even when armed with a gun and the assailant armed with a knife is 20' away, there is a very good chance you are going to need a direct ride to the hospital after that encounter. ...
For now, I want to be fair and say that I've not finished reading your post. What I have read, however, seems a good response to the question "What are the drawbacks and challenges of (1) using a tazer and (2) defending against edged weapons.

Am I mistaken in thinking that the central questions, if self defense is the reason for using guns, the questions that one must address prior to discussing the challenges and drawbacks of various means of self-defense, are these:
  • Are there no effective, non-lethal means to parry bladed weapons? If there are any, what are they, and why should one think they are not effective when adroitly applied?
  • Is there a reason to disbelieve the maker's assertion that a Tazer can be effective through up to two solid inches of material?
  • Are there no non-lethal gun use tactics? If there are any, what are they, and what steps must one take to use them effectively?
  • To what extent might one reasonably expect to need a potentially lethal means of self-defense?
I don't know if your comments address those questions. I'll find out when I return later to finish reading it. So far, I haven't yet observed that of the gun advocates in the thread's discussion, have concretely established (let alone having attempted to) clear answers that are relevant at a policy making level. I have seen people share the personal conclusions they've made for themselves, but not one advocate has looked at the issue from a stance that transcends themselves.

FWIW, would I prefer to have a gun for self defense rather than some other modality? Well, yes, of course. But as a topic for discussion and debate, the issue and questions aren't "all about me." The considerations and implications involved are much bigger than just me.

Earlier I saw someone write that the extent of selflessness to which they'd go would include using their gun to aid in my personal defense were it necessary to do so. That's commendable, honorable, and so on, and that they do so would in any such instance be greatly appreciated by me. But that doesn't mean that I believe or think that having a society, namely the one we have in U.S. that has the cultural attitudes we do regarding safety, self defense, and other topics, in which one can reliably expect that most or just many folks are "packin' heat" is in the nation's, the bulk of the citizenry's, best interests, even though there will be rarefied instances where a individual here or there may have a specific need to have a gun on their hip.


All the best.
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      09-01-2015, 07:32 PM   #114
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Could you rename the first category as "Sitting Ducks" instead of = All weapons are banned - no one has any.
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      09-01-2015, 09:28 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
For now, I want to be fair and say that I've not finished reading your post. What I have read, however, seems a good response to the question "What are the drawbacks and challenges of (1) using a tazer and (2) defending against edged weapons.

Am I mistaken in thinking that the central questions, if self defense is the reason for using guns, the questions that one must address prior to discussing the challenges and drawbacks of various means of self-defense, are these:
  • Are there no effective, non-lethal means to parry bladed weapons? If there are any, what are they, and why should one think they are not effective when adroitly applied?
  • Is there a reason to disbelieve the maker's assertion that a Tazer can be effective through up to two solid inches of material?
  • Are there no non-lethal gun use tactics? If there are any, what are they, and what steps must one take to use them effectively?
  • To what extent might one reasonably expect to need a potentially lethal means of self-defense?
I don't know if your comments address those questions. I'll find out when I return later to finish reading it. So far, I haven't yet observed that of the gun advocates in the thread's discussion, have concretely established (let alone having attempted to) clear answers that are relevant at a policy making level. I have seen people share the personal conclusions they've made for themselves, but not one advocate has looked at the issue from a stance that transcends themselves.

FWIW, would I prefer to have a gun for self defense rather than some other modality? Well, yes, of course. But as a topic for discussion and debate, the issue and questions aren't "all about me." The considerations and implications involved are much bigger than just me.

Earlier I saw someone write that the extent of selflessness to which they'd go would include using their gun to aid in my personal defense were it necessary to do so. That's commendable, honorable, and so on, and that they do so would in any such instance be greatly appreciated by me. But that doesn't mean that I believe or think that having a society, namely the one we have in U.S. that has the cultural attitudes we do regarding safety, self defense, and other topics, in which one can reliably expect that most or just many folks are "packin' heat" is in the nation's, the bulk of the citizenry's, best interests, even though there will be rarefied instances where a individual here or there may have a specific need to have a gun on their hip.


All the best.
1. The most effective weapon, lethal or otherwise anyone can carry is their brain. After that, it's training and when i say training, i mean training enough for all situations, so that you build muscle memory and instinctive reactions rather than thought out reactions. (not a viable option for most people) To counter a bladed weapon with nonlethal means is a very dangerous choice. IF you are trained enough, and have quick enough reactions, you could use a myriad of items for your defense. But at some point, you must swing from defensive tactics to offensive tactics if you want to end the threat. (assuming the blade wielding attacker isn't willing to give up and run)

If i were to face a blade wielding attacker and had to use "nonlethal" weapon for to defend myself, i would chose an asp/baton. (pictured below) But then my defense would be to attack the assailant's hand and arms as he swung his knife at me. A good clean hit with a baton can break bones. But, even being trained to defend yourself against a knife attack with a baton only lessens your chances of being cut in that incident. It most certainly is not a guarantee of safety. What if your knife wielding attacker is better trained at knife fighting than you are at baton fighting? Knives are tricky, scary to deal with even for those trained to do so, and lethal.

Baton:


2. This a a picture of a typical taser barb. Do you think the point will penetrate 2" of solid anything as well as 3mm of skin?



3. There are many nonlethal tactics. But most of those require an accommodating suspect. I think the correct term is less than lethal. (LTL) Almost all other means fall into the LTL category because people can and have die when: being tasered, pepper sprayed, shot with bean bags or rubber bullets, or hit with a baton.

The first step in using any LTL weapons are having them with you when are being attacked. The second step in deploying LTL tactics is identifying what your attacker wants, how many there are, the environment you're currently in, possible escape routes.

If they want to kill you, LTL will buy you a few seconds to run to safety. (if there is a safe place where you are)
If they want to rape you, LTL will buy you a few seconds to run to safety. (if there is a safe place where you are)
If they want to rob you, LTL may provide enough deterrent and cause the attacker to flee.

Now in any of those instances, deploying any LTL defense item is much like deploying a firearm. It is NOT as fast and seamless as western style trick shot/quick draw exhibitions. It takes a few seconds to do so and if your attacker is within 10-15 feet, they can close that gap before you can deploy ANY LTL or lethal means of defense. So this takes us back to your best weapon, your brain. Being aware of your situation before being surprised by an attacker is key. If you're walking to your car in a parking garage after a late movie and your car is the only one on that level and there is a guy or guys walking on that level, you had better be suspicious of them and keep enough distance to deploy some means of defense the moment they engage you.

4. If someone is wielding any weapon with obvious intent to cause another person bodily harm, the criteria for potential use of deadly force has been met.

With that said, anyone who has heard of George Zimmerman doesn't want to use deadly force in self defense. It can ruin your life.

In that same parking lot example, by being armed with a firearm, i can make myself look less like a victim even if i'm out numbered by acknowledging them, telling them to stop while motioning with my left hand while i put my right hand on the grip of my weapon making ready to draw. (that is 1 nonlethal deterrent) I can also brandish the weapon in this situation should they call my bluff. (thats my 2nd nonlethal deterrent) In my state, i'm allowed to fire a warning shot in a safe direction in an attempt to stop the crime from happening. (that's the 3rd nonlethal deterrent my firearm has afforded me)

In any of those moments, *most* people are thinking there is an easier target, let this one go. Same goes for a burglar coming to a house with a big dog; there are easier houses steal from. Thats why there aren't many statistics about houses that didn't get broken into because they have a dog. Same goes for statistics about people who didn't get raped, robbed or murdered when they were armed with a pistol.

Should the assailants in the garage not heed any of the 3 warning levels, what do you suppose i should assume their intent is? And what should i do about it?

More in line with this thread topic, make that empty parking garage be where i park my car every day for work, and instead of leaving from a late movie, i'm leaving late in the evening after a long day at work.

Blue:
My firearm is for my self defense as well as the defense of my family and my loved ones. My wife without verbalizing was worried about me being armed all the time because she thought (like many other people in this country who make assumptions) that i wanted to be a hero at some point. I explained to her that i am no hero. That firearm is just there to give us a fighting chance should we get caught up in the infinitesimally small odds of being in a active shooter event. She asked what i would do if we were at the mall and someone started shooting. I told her that if we were close enough to an exit, we'd exit immediately. If we weren't close to an exit, we'd take up a defense position behind some type of viable cover and wait for the even to end hoping the shooter doesn't come our way. The only way my weapon would be deployed in an event like that is if we were actively targeted. In the off chance the shooter is near us and isn't aware of my presence and i have a chance to end the ordeal with a high probability shot, i *may* take it. But while all situations are different, my planned reaction to them are not. 1st, Flee if at all possible. 2nd, get out of sight if at all possible. 3rd, take up a defensive (ambush style) fighting position by utilizing cover of some sort. 4th, engage the shooter from said hiding place or fighting position. 5th, engage the shooter in a moment of opportunity with a high probability shot.

I can only speak for myself and those i've talked about this topic with. Myself and all other people i know who carry a gun daily avoid conflict like the plague. When shit gets out of hand, i'm the first one out the door. I don't want any part of it, i wan't no trouble. There is additional accountability and liability that comes with carrying a gun. I, nor anyone else i know, want to use a firearm in self defense, not even in their home, let alone in a public venue.

But when push comes to shove, i'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. It's a cliche i know, but it's also true.

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      09-02-2015, 02:45 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
[.....]
I can only speak for myself and those i've talked about this topic with. Myself and all other people i know who carry a gun daily avoid conflict like the plague. When shit gets out of hand, i'm the first one out the door. I don't want any part of it, i wan't no trouble. There is additional accountability and liability that comes with carrying a gun. I, nor anyone else i know, want to use a firearm in self defense, not even in their home, let alone in a public venue.

But when push comes to shove, i'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. It's a cliche i know, but it's also true.
Wow just WOW. How is it living your life with all that in your head? and I don't mean that at all disrespectfully.
In the UK I have never even seen a handgun IRL except (and very rarely) in the hands of a Police officer. Never considered the possibility that I may have to seriously defend myself against anybody especially someone with a firearm.
All in all it seems like a heavy price to pay for the 2nd amendment freedom.

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      09-02-2015, 08:06 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Wow just WOW. How is it living your life with all that in your head? and I don't mean that at all disrespectfully.
In the UK I have never even seen a handgun IRL except (and very rarely) in the hands of a Police officer. Never considered the possibility that I may have to seriously defend myself against anybody especially someone with a firearm.
All in all it seems like a heavy price to pay for the 2nd amendment freedom.
It sounds like a lot and that people like me are constantly thinking about those things all the time, but it's really not. It's more like driving a manual transmission. It very soon becomes second nature and requires no active thought at all.

You've listed some statistics that don't really tell the whole story. If you live in America, don't associate with drugs, gangs, or live in the ghetto. Your chances of being wounded or killed by a gun really isn't any higher that most other places in the world. The vast majority, and i do mean vast majority of gun violence in America happens in large inner city ghettos and are centered around the gang controlled drug trade.

Do you remember the Mike Brown incident that happened in Ferguson a year or so ago? The week after Mike Brown was killed by police, something around the total of 18 black men were killed in the ghettos of Chicago by other black men. The sad part is that no one, including politicians seem to care about young black men being killed in the inner city until it comes to using their death statistics to further their agenda. I don't mean you when saying this, i can see how being on the outside looking in that those statistics look quite damning. But outside of that criteria i talked about, you're quite safe from guns in the US.

I've only been shot at once, and i am a VERY rare statistic. But the shooters that day as the police investigators determined, were part of gang initiations where they had to target someone who disrespected them, and shoot them. It just so happen i had my Irish friend and his cousin who are always down for fighting in the car that day and after the gang members gave us the finger, my friend and his cousin returned the favor which triggered a car chase and a being shot at. Luckily, i could drive better than those guys and we got far enough away that only one bullet hit my car.

But it was that day that i realized that there are some genuine whackos rolling around and as very rare as that occurrence may be, i don't want to be stuck in traffic and be killed without being able to defend myself because some idiot wants to be in a gang. But do take note that had my friends not reciprocated the gangs hand gestures, that incident would have never happened. That was my other lessoned learned that day. Never engage anyone on the road through anger no matter what they say or gestures they use towards you. You never know what they'll do as revenge.

The second amendment is a great freedom to have. Considering that event that took place where i was shot at. I was actively driving towards the closest police station when being shot at while looking for police cars, i would have just crashed into one had i seen one. Bare in mind this was 4pm on a Sunday as well. But with that type of criminal element in our midst, i'm grateful to have the ability to defend myself, with deadly force should the need arise. All it would have taken for me or one of my friends to not be here today was being stuck at a traffic light long enough for them to exit their car and get to mine. That happened once and 4 guys jumped out and started running towards my car. Lucky again that the light turned green and i could get out of there, but they still gave chase, running read lights and what not to try and catch us. The police, anti gun laws, nothing was helping protect me that day other than myself. The same holds true today.
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      09-02-2015, 08:55 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Wow just WOW. How is it living your life with all that in your head? and I don't mean that at all disrespectfully.
In the UK I have never even seen a handgun IRL except (and very rarely) in the hands of a Police officer. Never considered the possibility that I may have to seriously defend myself against anybody especially someone with a firearm.
All in all it seems like a heavy price to pay for the 2nd amendment freedom.
What's interesting is that nothing that Tonka talks about is exclusive to the United States, the stuff he's talking about is stuff that everyone (in every country on the planet) should be aware of. It's nice to think that "bad stuff only happens to other people", but it's simply not the case. Evil exists in this world, thinking that it can't touch you because your country has outlawed firearms is naive at best.
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      09-02-2015, 11:28 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
What's interesting is that nothing that Tonka talks about is exclusive to the United States, the stuff he's talking about is stuff that everyone (in every country on the planet) should be aware of. It's nice to think that "bad stuff only happens to other people", but it's simply not the case. Evil exists in this world, thinking that it can't touch you because your country has outlawed firearms is naive at best.
Maybe so...perhaps I have been lucky my whole life. I spent 10 years working all over Europe often in large cities and never felt especially threatened anywhere, certainly never regretted not having a weapon to protect myself.
There was the time I got stopped in my car at a Police anti terrorist roadblock outside Rome (Italy) and the Carabinieri guy stuck his machine gun actually in my face, which would have been ok except he was sweating and shaking like a MF...but I don't think that counts.

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      09-02-2015, 02:30 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Wow just WOW. How is it living your life with all that in your head? and I don't mean that at all disrespectfully.
In the UK I have never even seen a handgun IRL except (and very rarely) in the hands of a Police officer. Never considered the possibility that I may have to seriously defend myself against anybody especially someone with a firearm.
All in all it seems like a heavy price to pay for the 2nd amendment freedom.
Just because you havent, doesnt mean you never will. The difference is in the UK if/when someone does show up with an illegally obtained firearm, you will be defenseless and at the mercy of their hand with hopes somone better armed will come along to save you. As far as a terrorist is concerned, what better target to hit than one that has no way of defending itself.

Unfortunately while you can armchair quarterback and play captain hindsight all you want, guns are here, and they are here to stay. The argument comes in how to safely stop bad guys from having them, while not infringing on the freedom of good guy. Some focus on banning them all, which effectively only removes them from being obtained legally, some focus on ridiculous regulations on magazine size, firearm components etc, which again only affects those legally purchasing items and having "in compliance" guns, and someday someone with a brain will come along (maybe its your calling Tony!) and try to find out what, in the past 20-30 years, has changed in our society which sparked a different kind of violence beyond the typical gang on gang, random crime etc and turned it into people mass murdering for attention or attacking people by race/profession/religion. Seeing as how these people typically choose death after their accomplishments when possible leads me to believe it was someone with severe mental issues as opposed to a serial criminal intent on causing harm and living on a legacy.
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      09-02-2015, 02:39 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Maybe so...perhaps I have been lucky my whole life. I spent 10 years working all over Europe often in large cities and never felt especially threatened anywhere, certainly never regretted not having a weapon to protect myself.
There was the time I got stopped in my car at a Police anti terrorist roadblock outside Rome (Italy) and the Carabinieri guy stuck his machine gun actually in my face, which would have been ok except he was sweating and shaking like a MF...but I don't think that counts.
Most people wont ever have a situation occur. As some have said, the percentage is relatively low, especially considering our land size and population, however the news loves mass shootings and homicide because it gets ratings and reviews and they can suckle off the story for days on end. You dont hear about the thousands who die from car accidents, sicknesses, suicides, or other causes because honestly its not newsworthy. The odds of being involved in a mass murder are even lower to the point where counting decimal places is pointless, yet the media will try to make you believe there is imminent danger being in the vicinity of anyone with a firearm. With all that in mind, IF it happens, I like knowing I have a last way out besides some coward shooting me to make a point or get pictured on the news. Regardless of your political view, preference on firearms, or belief of preservation, I want the choice to be as much mine as possible on the fate of my own life. If you choose not to have a firearm, no one is going to force you to buy one, but my interest in self presevation should be respected the same.

For what its worth, I use my government and personal training the best I can and pass it on to others any time I can... many people who felt the same way as you 99.999% of their life had it come crashing down with a single event, and now they want to protect themselves. They were thankfully the lucky ones who made it out, others werent so fortunate and dont have the ability to look back and say man, I wish I had done something proactive earlier. I dont walk around in fear for my life, looking for trouble or trying to be a hero, I just want to know that if any situation does occur, im at least prepared.
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      09-02-2015, 03:16 PM   #122
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As a Canadian this whole discussion just sounds bat-shit crazy.
Agreed. The fact that this is even a tread shows how out of whack some people are.
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      09-02-2015, 03:29 PM   #123
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Agreed. The fact that this is even a tread shows how out of whack some people are.
Yes. I can't believe how this thread brings out the control freaks, haters, and thugs. You would think more people would be open minded to ideas and considerate of opposing positions, but like you said...some people are out of whack.
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      09-02-2015, 05:16 PM   #124
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Yes. I can't believe how this thread brings out the control freaks, haters, and thugs. You would think more people would be open minded to ideas and considerate of opposing positions, but like you said...some people are out of whack.
But it's much easier to just throw around insults instead of trying to have an intelligent discussion. Proves quite a few points...
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      09-02-2015, 05:19 PM   #125
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But it's much easier to just throw around insults instead of trying to have an intelligent discussion. Proves quite a few points...
I got tired of the back and forth, but...guilty as charged
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      09-02-2015, 07:22 PM   #126
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Agreed. The fact that this is even a tread shows how out of whack some people are.
What's funny is that if you met the people in this thread who you diem to be out of whack, (assuming i'm included in that group) you wouldn't have a clue that we were wearing a gun and since the conversation wouldn't likely come up, you'd probably be happy to buy any of us a beer and get along just fine with all of us.
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      09-02-2015, 07:43 PM   #127
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So there's gun toting wackos everywhere!
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      09-03-2015, 05:50 AM   #128
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Just because you havent, doesnt mean you never will. The difference is in the UK if/when someone does show up with an illegally obtained firearm, you will be defenseless and at the mercy of their hand with hopes somone better armed will come along to save you.
For some perspective....In 2010 of the 493,242 deaths in England and Wales, 642 were homicides. Of those 55 were murder by firearm (29 in 2013/4)
I am statistically more likely to become a millionaire on the national lottery or to die falling from a ladder than be killed by a firearm.
Its so statistically unlikely that it bears absolutely no consideration and gets none.

We have plenty of our own problems, but in this single comparison between what are essentially quite similar cultures, the fortuitous change in firearm legislation made after the Hungerford massacre back in 1987 made a dramatic difference to the criminal landscape, especially compared to yours.

I did some research on gun crime a few years ago and in one of the discussions I had at the time with some "pro-gunners" I asked hypothetically if they (ie the USA) would give up their firearms if in return they could have the same low homicide rate (and low firearm crime) as we do.
The answer was emphatically no. Certainly with those guys the early arguments put forward were incidental, they simply wanted to own and enjoyed owning firearms and didn't want to give that up even if it would make their lives and their families lives dramatically safer.

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      09-03-2015, 08:38 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Certainly with those guys the early arguments put forward were incidental, they simply wanted to own and enjoyed owning firearms and didn't want to give that up even if it would make their lives and their families lives dramatically safer.
Not surprised... And pretty sad.
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      09-03-2015, 10:06 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
For some perspective....In 2010 of the 493,242 deaths in England and Wales, 642 were homicides. Of those 55 were murder by firearm (29 in 2013/4)
I am statistically more likely to become a millionaire on the national lottery or to die falling from a ladder than be killed by a firearm.
Its so statistically unlikely that it bears absolutely no consideration and gets none.

We have plenty of our own problems, but in this single comparison between what are essentially quite similar cultures, the fortuitous change in firearm legislation made after the Hungerford massacre back in 1987 made a dramatic difference to the criminal landscape, especially compared to yours.

I did some research on gun crime a few years ago and in one of the discussions I had at the time with some "pro-gunners" I asked hypothetically if they (ie the USA) would give up their firearms if in return they could have the same low homicide rate (and low firearm crime) as we do.
The answer was emphatically no. Certainly with those guys the early arguments put forward were incidental, they simply wanted to own and enjoyed owning firearms and didn't want to give that up even if it would make their lives and their families lives dramatically safer.
Why is it you only compare firearm murders? Looking at a few websites you have over 6 times as many murders with "sharp instruments", proving that if someone wants to murder someone, they will do so regardless of the tool used. Dancing around bragging that you banned guns and only 55 people died also proved my point that removing firearms only makes it so criminals have them as apparently 55 decided to use them (which means plenty more have them). You also fail to understand that whatever problem is happening in America isn't because of guns, its because of whatever change in society has people turning to murder and malicious acts. Maybe the UK should ban knives next and see if your murder rate drops even more, or if people just start getting beaten to death with bats.
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      09-03-2015, 10:12 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by bmw1racer View Post
Not surprised... And pretty sad.
Why? Because someone obviously opposed to firearms asked a loaded question with a "what if" in hopes of getting them to admit they see guns in the same Evil view you do? What you fail to see is that most "gun owners" don't have a problem with gun violence because they have guns to protect themselves and their families, as well as enjoy them for other reasons.
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      09-03-2015, 10:15 AM   #132
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Most people without guns don't have to worry about gun violence either. It's because if your not involved in criminal activity the odds of running into a gun are slim. It's not the having of a gun that protects you its not being an idiot.
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