BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Off-Topic Discussions Board Politics/Religion Workplace violence poll - would you rather

View Poll Results: Which would you rather have at your place of work
All weapons are banned - no one has any 30 29.70%
Private security unarmed - non lethal only 4 3.96%
Private security armed - firearms 20 19.80%
weapons allowed by all employees (cannot say who gets them or does not get them) 11 10.89%
weapons allowed by employees with certification class 36 35.64%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-03-2015, 11:22 AM   #133
David70
Colonel
United_States
839
Rep
2,020
Posts

Drives: 06 Z4M Coupe - 13 Cadillac ATS
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH

iTrader: (1)

I would be interested in seeing the statistics on odds of gun violence or homicide where criminal activity or someone the person new/family wasn't involved. Basically stay out of criminal activities and don't associate yourself with people or family that are likely to kill you and what are the odds of having an issue.

I have a step brother that carries a gun everywhere he goes and I wonder who or what he is involved with that makes it likely enough for something to happen that it is likely. I decided to stop wearing my crash helmet when I drive because while it is safer I feel like not enough to deal with the hassle.

Also, for the post above, there is not serious debate on banning all guns so your stock pile of weapons is secure.
__________________
2006 Z4M Coupe - Stromung exhaust, ZHP knob, stubby antenna, clutch delay delete
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 11:38 AM   #134
C5driver
Major
C5driver's Avatar
3382
Rep
1,154
Posts

Drives: 55...just kidding.
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: 33.6167 N, 117.8975 W

iTrader: (0)

Carrying a firearm in plain view is allowed in quite a number of states in the US also.

The issue is discretion, maybe need, and both with a dose of common sense. Guns, abortion, religion, politics...all topics never to be brought up in polite company, so this makes us what...impolite?

There are a number of grey areas that are overlooked in these discussions and much like the impolite gentlemen in Washington, consensus needs to be found. Seems like we're more and more becoming a nation of intolerance.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 11:41 AM   #135
FenixMike
Captain
391
Rep
769
Posts

Drives: 2015 X5 50i
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Albuquerque, NM

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post

Also, for the post above, there is not serious debate on banning all guns so your stock pile of weapons is secure.
Actually it starts off as "guns are bad M'kay, you don't need them", which transitions into "we need more gun control", which ends up at "what if we just didn't have guns, the world would be full of rainbows and unicorns with no violence".

Regardless of your idea of hating guns, not one anti gun person has come up with a single plausible idea for ridding the world of violence (ALL violence, not just those that use guns). It will be a never ending debate where the easy way out is ban things that look angry and make you feel good inside instead of fixing the issue.
__________________
2015 X5 M-Sport 50i - ESS Tuning Flash, VRSF Downpipes, x5m filters, Bavsound stage 1 complete

Gone but never forgotten... 2014 M5 Competition, 2015 M3, 2014 X5 50i M Sport, 2015 435i M Sport, 2011 550i, 2011 535i
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 11:52 AM   #136
SenorFunkyPants
Brigadier General
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
United Kingdom
376
Rep
3,516
Posts

Drives: 2019 M5
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenixMike View Post
Why is it you only compare firearm murders? Looking at a few websites you have over 6 times as many murders with "sharp instruments", proving that if someone wants to murder someone, they will do so regardless of the tool used.
2010 England/Wales had 214 sharp instrument homicides for a pop of 55.6m
2010 USA had 1732 sharp instrument homicides for a pop of 309 m.
So yes we have some 6 times as many knife murders as firearm murders (simply because firearms are next to impossible to source) but still at a much lower rate than the USA.
Which rather disproves the idea that murders are committed just as easy with a knife if a gun is unavailable.
Appreciate 1
      09-03-2015, 02:29 PM   #137
fravel
Colonel
fravel's Avatar
United_States
1599
Rep
2,456
Posts

Drives: Monaco Blue '06 330i
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: The Nasti 'Nati

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
2010 England/Wales had 214 sharp instrument homicides for a pop of 55.6m
2010 USA had 1732 sharp instrument homicides for a pop of 309 m.
So yes we have some 6 times as many knife murders as firearm murders (simply because firearms are next to impossible to source) but still at a much lower rate than the USA.
Which rather disproves the idea that murders are committed just as easy with a knife if a gun is unavailable.
Who cares if killing someone with a knife is easier/harder than killing someone with a gun? The goal is to reduce violent crime, not just to reduce gun violence. As your own statistics show, a lack of a preferred tool doesn't stop a criminal from committing crime, it just changes the tool.

Sure, maybe a firearm in the hands of that criminal has a greater potential to inflict harm to his victim, but then again - maybe a firearm in the hands of the victim could prevent him from becoming a victim in the first place.

I can certainly agree that if we went back a few hundred years to the advent of powder-based projectile-launchers, stopped that from happening and firearms weren't now a prolific item worldwide then maybe we would live in a better world... but we can't, it's already happened and firearms are everywhere - even in the countries that have outlawed them. This is fact, you cannot and will not ever change it. Knowing this, in my opinion, a free, prudent man should take steps to be prepared to protect himself and his loved ones by whatever means necessary should the need arise. To be sure, I pray that need never arises - but I'll be damned before it comes and I'm left empty-handed and praying for mercy.
__________________

Last edited by fravel; 09-03-2015 at 02:51 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 05:06 PM   #138
Templar
Lieutenant Colonel
Templar's Avatar
United_States
242
Rep
1,884
Posts

Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: One of the coasts...

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by C5driver View Post
I got tired of the back and forth, but...guilty as charged
Not really directed at you. I find it strange how rude some people are being over this. I suppose the right thing to say after a tragedy is "na-na-na I told you so" like a petulant child though. Makes me wonder who the real "whackos" are...
__________________
'11 BMW E92 ///M3 - ZCP and DCT
'15 Ford F-250 - Lariat, 6.7 Powerstroke Turbo-diesel
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 05:45 PM   #139
1MOREMOD
2018 track days - 0 ridge 1:52:24 pacific 1:33:30
1MOREMOD's Avatar
United_States
9960
Rep
22,629
Posts

Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

iTrader: (5)

Asute. Lots of us are wackos!
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 08:37 PM   #140
Mr Tonka
is probably out riding.
Mr Tonka's Avatar
United_States
5853
Rep
2,299
Posts

Drives: Something Italian
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sweatypeninsula

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
Despite the attempt to paint knife crimes as an impulsive issue of short tempers and petty disputes, carjackings, robberies and premeditated murders are frequently committed with knives in the UK and the system is trying to make sure victims remain defenseless.

Police departments in the UK, urging people to give up their blades, including those from the kitchen, are literally advising people to NOT become a victim by NOT defending themselves:

Here is what the murder rate looks like since the UKs gun ban with knife murders spiking drastically: England and Wales Homicide rate since gun bans.
These are for firearm homicides in the US.




Still on the decline since 2010; current data states 3.2 / 100k.

__________________
"There is no greater tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of the law and in the name of justice. -Charles de Secondat"
http://www.m3post.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic59612_1.gif
Appreciate 1
      09-04-2015, 03:31 AM   #141
SenorFunkyPants
Brigadier General
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
United Kingdom
376
Rep
3,516
Posts

Drives: 2019 M5
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

The rate of knife homicide in England/Wales has remained essentially unchanged over the last 20 years.

At the time of the handgun ban there were around 200 knife murders a year and it has remained in the 200-270 range ever since (rising and falling as a function of the overall homicide rate).

1994 - ~230
1995 - ~245
1996 - ~190
1997 - ~195 (Firearms act 1997)
1998 - 200

2010 - 214
2011 - 237
2012 - 195
2013 - 203
2014 - 182
[~ because taken from a graph. Rest are recorded numbers]

So the idea that weapon substitution (ie knife) would occur for firearm homicides is not supported.

it is undeniable that firearms are vastly more popular than knives for committing homicide not least because they are a ranged weapon but also because they are efficient for everyone not just the physically strong and/or brave.
A casual look at other crime categories suggests that the UK and USA rates are broadly similar, given that, then there is no reasonable explanation why the USA homicide rate is ~4 times higher than ours, other than the easy availability of firearms.
Interesting excluding homicide by firearm gives the USA a similar homicide rate to the UK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
These are for firearm homicides in the US.
Still on the decline since 2010; current data states 3.2 / 100k.
We are mirroring your decline in homicide rates (both overall and firearm).
In 2014 there were a total of just 29 firearm homicides in England and Wales (pop 57 million).

Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 09-04-2015 at 10:16 AM..
Appreciate 1
      09-04-2015, 11:38 AM   #142
David70
Colonel
United_States
839
Rep
2,020
Posts

Drives: 06 Z4M Coupe - 13 Cadillac ATS
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenixMike View Post
Actually it starts off as "guns are bad M'kay, you don't need them", which transitions into "we need more gun control", which ends up at "what if we just didn't have guns, the world would be full of rainbows and unicorns with no violence".

Regardless of your idea of hating guns, not one anti gun person has come up with a single plausible idea for ridding the world of violence (ALL violence, not just those that use guns). It will be a never ending debate where the easy way out is ban things that look angry and make you feel good inside instead of fixing the issue.
Interesting, I thought this started out with workplace violence and taking your gun to work which I am completely against. Back to the original topic, I am still waiting on data or information that would change my mind about guns at work and what it would do for us. I also don't see any tie in between Hitler and the original topic.

At what point did I say I hated guns? I do believe there needs to be more stringent regulations on who buys them and what type but I don't believe we should ban them and I don't hate them. Why does the gun proponent believe that any regulations mean the end result is to ban them? I have all kinds of regulation related to buying and operating my car, how it is made and what has to be on it. Most relate to safety or the environment and I don't believe we are any closer to banning them then we were 100 years ago.
__________________
2006 Z4M Coupe - Stromung exhaust, ZHP knob, stubby antenna, clutch delay delete
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 12:14 PM   #143
fravel
Colonel
fravel's Avatar
United_States
1599
Rep
2,456
Posts

Drives: Monaco Blue '06 330i
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: The Nasti 'Nati

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Why does the gun proponent believe that any regulations mean the end result is to ban them?
Because history has shown us this to be the case over and over and over.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 01:31 PM   #144
SenorFunkyPants
Brigadier General
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
United Kingdom
376
Rep
3,516
Posts

Drives: 2019 M5
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
One reason might be that the USA has more criminals within its population willing to kill. Perhaps even ~4 times more than the U.K. It's a leap but below is some data that may support my hypothesis:
IIUC:
The USA prison population is dominated by drug offenders (nearly half).
An unintended consequence of poorly thought out drug laws implemented decades ago (which incarcerated citizens for minor drug offences) has been to convert a whole section of society who were already poor and poorly educated into habitual criminals.
Recidivism is high simply because once released the offenders chance of obtaining meaningful employment is low due to a criminal record and poor education.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
If easy availability of firearms did support the argument for high homicide rates, then the SWISS should have the highest homicide rate since you can buy guns so easily in Switzerland - even at gas stations. Or, perhaps the SWISS population's propensity to commit crime (or not commit crime) has something to do with it. Please see my earlier post on the SWISS stats (above). PS: Heck, maybe the SWISS will start putting them in vending machines...
"The Weapons Act contains a comprehensive regime for the licensing of the acquisition and carrying of permitted weapons; the banning of certain weapons, including automatic firearms; and the production and trade in weapons, including the reporting obligations of dealers and a registration system that covers all privately owned guns, including those acquired by inheritance, but not including hunting rifles. The federal Weapons Act is implemented by the cantons and the cantons also keep registers of privately owned guns. The provisions on ammunition are in keeping with the principles of the Act, which aims to deter abuse while permitting lawful gun ownership. An acquisition license is required primarily for handguns."

USA to Switzerland is a poor comparison...Switzerland has a small population, a high standard of living and education. Low crime rates, low levels of inner city crime and a small prison population.
They have around half the firearm ownership rate of the USA of which a high number are military long barrel weapons kept at home as part of the military service.
In 2013 Switzerlands firearm related death rate was 2.91 per 100,000 population compared to the USA of 10.64 (for context the UK is 0.26) which when you consider that they have half the firearm ownership rate compared to the USA doesn't look that great after all.
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 06:02 PM   #145
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FenixMike View Post
Most people wont ever have a situation occur. As some have said, the percentage is relatively low, especially considering our land size and population, however the news loves mass shootings and homicide because it gets ratings and reviews and they can suckle off the story for days on end. You dont hear about the thousands who die from car accidents, sicknesses, suicides, or other causes because honestly its not newsworthy. The odds of being involved in a mass murder are even lower to the point where counting decimal places is pointless, yet the media will try to make you believe there is imminent danger being in the vicinity of anyone with a firearm. With all that in mind, IF it happens, I like knowing I have a last way out besides some coward shooting me to make a point or get pictured on the news. Regardless of your political view, preference on firearms, or belief of preservation, I want the choice to be as much mine as possible on the fate of my own life. If you choose not to have a firearm, no one is going to force you to buy one, but my interest in self presevation should be respected the same.

For what its worth, I use my government and personal training the best I can and pass it on to others any time I can... many people who felt the same way as you 99.999% of their life had it come crashing down with a single event, and now they want to protect themselves. They were thankfully the lucky ones who made it out, others werent so fortunate and dont have the ability to look back and say man, I wish I had done something proactive earlier. I dont walk around in fear for my life, looking for trouble or trying to be a hero, I just want to know that if any situation does occur, im at least prepared.
Right there is found the huge difference between you and most people: you actually have specific training for handling dangerous situations, and if I've inferred correctly from what you've shared about yourself, you continually update and refine your skills. I really doubt that most gun owners have comparable training, past or ongoing.

So while you specifically may not be a person whom I'd be nervous about going about with a gun, I can't say the same, or presume the same is so, about the other owners of the other 300M+ guns in U.S.

What I'm getting at is that, although you've made some points that seem legit, they also seem to issue from the standpoint of someone with a rarefied set of circumstances surrounding their own use and experience with guns. Just as I have certain traits that are superior to those of most people, your facility with guns and high stress, life threatening situations is superior to what strikes me as that of most people. Accordingly, just as I have to step back from my personal situation when considering matters where I have a superiority, you do too.

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed

Last edited by tony20009; 09-04-2015 at 06:08 PM..
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 08:14 PM   #146
3.0L
Lieutenant Colonel
3.0L's Avatar
United_States
1299
Rep
1,987
Posts

Drives: M235i
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Here's a little more information regarding gun ownership in Switzerland:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

One of the key points is training, something not required in the US.
__________________
///M235i | Mineral Grey Metallic | Premium Package | Technology Package | Driver Assistance Package | Dakota Coral Red/Black Leather | Harman/Kardon Premium 360 watt sound system | 8-speed automatic

Want a Cookie?.
Appreciate 1
      09-04-2015, 09:26 PM   #147
Mr Tonka
is probably out riding.
Mr Tonka's Avatar
United_States
5853
Rep
2,299
Posts

Drives: Something Italian
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sweatypeninsula

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
IIUC:

In 2013 Switzerlands firearm related death rate was 2.91 per 100,000 population compared to the USA of 10.64 (for context the UK is 0.26) which when you consider that they have half the firearm ownership rate compared to the USA doesn't look that great after all.
We're talking homicides here. That 10.64 must include accidents and suicides. To be fair you're really talking about a firearm homicide rate of ~3.6 / 100k.
__________________
"There is no greater tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of the law and in the name of justice. -Charles de Secondat"
http://www.m3post.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic59612_1.gif
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2015, 05:13 AM   #148
SenorFunkyPants
Brigadier General
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
United Kingdom
376
Rep
3,516
Posts

Drives: 2019 M5
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
The Drug culture in the USA breeds violence and a heavy prison population made up of repeat criminal offenders.
You would have thought after the calamity that was prohibition, that when USA legislators initially constructed a strategy to cope with the then nascent drug problem they could have come up with something better than simply incarcerating users - a strategy that appears to have exponentially worsened the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFerry View Post
The information I provided about SWISS gun rights, is not intended for the reader as a comparison between the USA and the SWISS, but rather to highlight the fact that easy accessibility to firearms is not the entire reason for high the USA's homicide rates - as was postulated earlier, but rather the unusually high number of violent drug related criminals - for a "developed" western world nation.
Indeed...the effect of reducing firearm availability on firearm related crime will be always be a function of the local crime rate.
In isolation: The difference between a 100% and a 0% firearm ownership rate in say Detroit would be dramatic whereas not, in some small town in Idaho.

What is surprising is the general resistance to a robust system of firearm licensing. Nothing makes a criminals life simpler than easy access to unregistered handguns. Without joined up legislation across all states to register firearm ownership, the attempts of individual states who have made that hard choice are very much diluted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
We're talking homicides here. That 10.64 must include accidents and suicides. To be fair you're really talking about a firearm homicide rate of ~3.6 / 100k.
Using Switzerland as some sort of "poster boy" for widespread firearm ownership is deeply flawed as already noted.
Given their relatively low crime rate, and thus low firearm related crime, it starkly stands out that Switzerland has the highest domestic murder rate in Europe second only to Finland (who have a higher gun ownership rate).
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2015, 11:54 AM   #149
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
We're talking homicides here. That 10.64 must include accidents and suicides. To be fair you're really talking about a firearm homicide rate of ~3.6 / 100k.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #150
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
...Using Switzerland as some sort of "poster boy" for widespread firearm ownership is deeply flawed as already noted.

Given their relatively low crime rate, and thus low firearm related crime, it starkly stands out that Switzerland has the highest domestic murder rate in Europe second only to Finland (who have a higher gun ownership rate).
Hmmm....

Switzerland:
  • Low crime rate
  • High gun ownership rate
  • Second highest murder rate in Europe after Finland, which has an even higher gun ownership rate.
Seems there's a field day's worth of unsubstantiated inferences just waiting to be made there by folks on either side of the issue.

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      09-12-2015, 02:20 PM   #151
MrRoboto
Brigadier General
Canada
1749
Rep
4,836
Posts

Drives: VO 1M
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/06/3481...ves-him-wrong/
Appreciate 0
      09-12-2015, 11:46 PM   #152
bmw1racer
bimmerphile, technogeek
bmw1racer's Avatar
United_States
723
Rep
3,551
Posts

Drives: 2012 128i E82 6MT Sport
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2016, 02:51 PM   #153
xdnbc
Enlisted Member
7
Rep
39
Posts

Drives: 2016 328xi Touring
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Vancouver

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I have been working for 25 years, never needed a gun at work and don't know anyone that has needed a gun at work. Yes there is a possibility of anything but I also might get hit by lightening tomorrow and am not going to worry about it.
I think every American should carry their own lightening rod, just in case they need it for self defense
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2016, 05:42 PM   #154
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
UncleWede's Avatar
United_States
9113
Rep
8,052
Posts

Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA

iTrader: (0)

Shortly after Christmas I went out with my son, his friend, 2 nephews and a niece. IT was the older nephew's idea. We went out with2 rifles and a shotgun to a location where BLM allowed the shooting of guns. On the way in, many people shook their heads at us and said it was way too crowded. We got there and there were some groups, but not crowded. I have to say that everyone was careful, observant of those around them, and we were able to have a consensus on when the range was "closed" so we could safely go down and reset targets, etc.

We were there for about 2 hours, and I can't honestly say I ever considered unsafely unloading a weapon on anyone around me. In fact, as I was drawing a bead on a rock face at 200yd, then slightly missed, my comment to our group was "If it were a real buck, we'd be eating dinner soon" NEVER did it cross my mind to shoot a human being.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:30 PM.




bmw
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST