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      11-24-2015, 01:17 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
Because God said "let it be attraction between two objects" and so it happened... Amen.
Maybe, maybe not. I have no idea and I'm ok with that, some people are not.
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      11-24-2015, 02:10 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps View Post
Maybe, maybe not. I have no idea and I'm ok with that, some people are not.
I'm curious to know if you are Agnostic.
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      12-08-2015, 02:24 PM   #135
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Not looking to argue with anyone. You guys are all good people with good reasons to believe what you believe.

It's hard to argue what we cannot see. I grew up as a christian and can say for my self that I have many answered prayers and merciless in my life. And the idea of me breathing every day and moving around and love, nature, food. is a miracle in it self. When you have things happen in your life that are answers to your prayers you start believing that there is God.

It is really easy to prove to your self that God isn't there if you don't search. If you look through history and archeology close enough it will show you how much of the bible is true. Don't listen what random people say. Research and look for hard evidence. But before you research even if you don't think God is there, try to pray to God and ask if he is there to show you.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/C-dece...ution_conflict
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      12-08-2015, 06:25 PM   #136
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Looking at this from the other side.

For those not believing in a deity, just pure science and maths.

Two questions.

1. Is it possible for a human to travel at Sub light speeds and survive?
Obviously not right at this moment in time.

2. Is there other life in the universe
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      12-09-2015, 12:15 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by 335e92 View Post
Not looking to argue with anyone. You guys are all good people with good reasons to believe what you believe.

It's hard to argue what we cannot see. I grew up as a christian and can say for my self that I have many answered prayers and merciless in my life. And the idea of me breathing every day and moving around and love, nature, food. is a miracle in it self. When you have things happen in your life that are answers to your prayers you start believing that there is God.

It is really easy to prove to your self that God isn't there if you don't search. If you look through history and archeology close enough it will show you how much of the bible is true. Don't listen what random people say. Research and look for hard evidence. But before you research even if you don't think God is there, try to pray to God and ask if he is there to show you.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/C-dece...ution_conflict
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      12-09-2015, 07:40 AM   #138
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I saw something recently about the cosmological constant and how the universe is so finely balanced to within many trillionths of a fraction that it points to the existence of a creator. It was a virtually impossible fluke. I think the number had a 98 decimal place accuracy to it!! It was concluded that the only way this could be is that we must be one of an infinite number of universes and that we happen to be in one that has a perfectly balanced number of forces to allow an existence of matter. Blew my mind!
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      12-09-2015, 03:03 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by 335e92 View Post
Not looking to argue with anyone. You guys are all good people with good reasons to believe what you believe.

It's hard to argue what we cannot see. I grew up as a christian and can say for my self that I have many answered prayers and merciless in my life. And the idea of me breathing every day and moving around and love, nature, food. is a miracle in it self. When you have things happen in your life that are answers to your prayers you start believing that there is God.

It is really easy to prove to your self that God isn't there if you don't search. If you look through history and archeology close enough it will show you how much of the bible is true. Don't listen what random people say. Research and look for hard evidence. But before you research even if you don't think God is there, try to pray to God and ask if he is there to show you.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/C-dece...ution_conflict
While I respect your opinion, it symbolizes a major problem I have with the religious. No offense, but when you say things happen in your life, prayers are answered, etc. How do you know you are not giving credit to a deity for things that would've happened anyway? Had you not prayed, do you believe things would have been different? And if so, how do you weigh that against the fact that millions and millions around the world pray for things like having food or a roof over their heads or surviving an illness and don't get their prayers answered. By believing that he's answered your prayers when millions of others have gone unanswered you are saying god chose you in a way, that you are special. You'd have to think that to believe that he made good things happen to you but ignored so many millions of others. That represents a major problem to me because I feel certain that if there were a god, he'd help everyone or no one. He wouldn't pick and choose. Again, no offense to you personally. I think humans always want to attribute meaning to things that happen randomly. The nature of randomness will allow for great things to happen to one person while terrible things happen to another and so on forever. The people who are on the positive side of these random events, if religious, will seek to establish a spiritual link to the event. Some people on the negative side may do the same, blaming god for bad things....but in reality there are is no good and bad, there just is. Whatever can happen, eventually will happen.
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      12-09-2015, 03:21 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
While I respect your opinion, it symbolizes a major problem I have with the religious. Not talking to you personally but in general. When you say things happen in your life, prayers are answered, etc. How do you know you are not giving credit to a deity for things that would've happened anyway? Had you not prayed, do you believe things would have been different? And if so, how do you weigh that against the fact that millions and millions around the world pray for things like having food or a roof over their heads or surviving an illness and don't get their prayers answered. By believing that he's answered your prayers when millions of others have gone unanswered you are saying god chose you in a way, that you are special. You'd have to think that to believe that he made good things happen to you but ignored so many millions of others. That represents a major problem to me. Again, no offense to you personally.
Exactly my point. Its human nature (well actually animal nature). Its part of why we have been so successful, we look for patterns. Since we associate a particular behaviour with being rewarded, we stick with it. Same tests have been done with animals.

I used to believe, grew up in a very secular society and a very diverse community. Went to a Catholic school. I prayed for random things that I wanted. Good grades, spot on the team. Again I always knew which I would get and which I wont. But prayers have power, right?
We used to have these sessions with the priests where they'd read form the Bible, and give lessons. One day the lesson was "God helps those, who help themselves". It was great, but the idea kinda stuck with me. If I do all the work, and set the odds in my favour, I would win regardless. So, why bother praying? I was substituting my efforts with the book/practice for the game with extra prayers, and it never really worked. I only got results when I knew I could not have dome more. At 15 I stopped praying. Nothings changed.

I dont know if there is a God or not, but there is no personal God. I'm even skeptical about there even being a caring God. Look at why half the world is so Fucked up. Does he/she only love half the planet?

People talk about finding strength in religion and God, I say you're just finding that strength in yourself, and giving someone else the credit.
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      12-09-2015, 03:51 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Ruddigger View Post
Good feelings are not evidence. Sorry, this means nothing to me.
Bingo. That's the problem with religion in general. It's all heresay and feelings and human interpretation. None of it is evidence of anything. No matter how strongly someone believes in god, it means nothing in the scientific sense. Science has no room for beliefs. But most of us were imprinted when young and even in the back of a lot of our minds there is still that small part that says "I don't want to go to hell" even if the analytical part of your mind knows it's bullshit. Burning in hell or life in paradise can be a hell of a motivator. And it doesn't lead anyone to objective thinking. How can you be objective when you believe your eternal soul may hang in the balance?
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      12-09-2015, 04:03 PM   #142
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I encourage every skeptic and believer to study religion(s) of all kind and the history of civilization to come to your own conclusions. Often times people will make comments that "it's my thought" or "because I've felt this before" I believe or don't believe.

I personally believe that education, unbiased education, is the key to helping you deeply believe what side of the fence you are on. It has been this approach that has helped me to honestly conclude that religion is entirely man made and provides no real evidence of the origin of our universe.

I often wonder how many religious people in this world believe without a doubt what they have witnessed or learned at worship. It's safe to say that there are many that do as clearly if one feels strongly enough to commit suicidal "jihad" they must. I often wonder if those that so deeply believe in the power of prayer have ever realized that what they are experiencing may simply be the power of meditation.

Clearly I have my own thoughts on this but the most that I hope to encourage is for people to be honest with there selves and learn as much as you can. If you feel the answer to the origin life is found in the books of the Christian bible then would you not owe it to yourself and your God to be extremely well versed in your guide and explanation for your beliefs?
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      12-09-2015, 04:08 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by 1smokehouse View Post
What is at the end of the proverbial atheist rainbow? What is it we are waiting to find out with the assumption that there was no planner, designer or creator to this universe? That WE are the answer to ourselves? That we just have to be smarter and figure it out? Smh…

With that assumption in mind, the universe has been around for billions of years waiting to be noticed but completely unaware of itself, how it is evolving or even why. Then we show up billions of years later completely ignorant and unable to explain anything, yet we are at the top of the food chain as far as we know it and are hoping and reaching for the answer as to 1) why we exist and 2) who created us and 3) to what purpose we have been created. But, oh yeah, we can’t answer the last two questions because they are no longer valid based on our assumption because we didn’t need a creator… We are the result of a mindless process...

Sorry, I don’t like evolution…

God did it and I am happy with that, not because it’s some mental assumption based on simple ideas, but because I have a relationship with the one who calls himself God coupled with those ideas.

Just look around us, the human race is not improving, if anything we are PROVING over and over how selfish, arrogant and unloving we can be regardless of any facts we may learn from subatomic particles in a collider, trips to the moon or quantum physics.

The world needs love. God is love (1 John 4:8)
And with evolution, species that do not "improve" eventually go extinct. What's that say for us? However, I disagree that we are not improving.
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      12-09-2015, 06:39 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Looking at this from the other side.

For those not believing in a deity, just pure science and maths.

Two questions.

1. Is it possible for a human to travel at Sub light speeds and survive?
Obviously not right at this moment in time.

2. Is there other life in the universe


1. Sub light speed means, slower than light speed. Yes, I move slower than light speed almost all the time. I drive a 328 after all. If you meant FTL or faster than light, the math says no, not in this universe. Unless you could find a way to get out of normal space-time somehow where those laws do not apply. Which is how Star Trek gets around this problem.

2. I would say, mathematically the odds are pretty much 100%, that life in some form exists somewhere in this nearly inifinte universe. The odds of us ever being contacted or visited are astronomically small (if you pardon the pun,) due to the immense distances involved.
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      12-10-2015, 02:44 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Ruddigger View Post
1. Sub light speed means, slower than light speed. Yes, I move slower than light speed almost all the time. I drive a 328 after all. If you meant FTL or faster than light, the math says no, not in this universe. Unless you could find a way to get out of normal space-time somehow where those laws do not apply. Which is how Star Trek gets around this problem.

2. I would say, mathematically the odds are pretty much 100%, that life in some form exists somewhere in this nearly inifinte universe. The odds of us ever being contacted or visited are astronomically small (if you pardon the pun,) due to the immense distances involved.
Sub light means just below.

Anyhow, what I was pointing at is everyone has a belief of some type that at this moment in time may not be 'proveable'.

People believe life exists elsewhere, they have absolutely no proof what so ever (other than probability).

Is Sub light speed achievable, at this moment in time it's impossible, however people believe in it even knowing it cannot at this moment be proved or even mathematically proven.

So pretty much everyone has a belief that cannot be proven.
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      12-10-2015, 06:34 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Looking at this from the other side.

For those not believing in a deity, just pure science and maths.
I hear this often. While I know this wasn't your complete statement I want to use it and offer some food for thought.

It's not a new concept for the human race that we don't believe what we cant see or prove. For a purely scientific perspective it's impossible to completely rule out the existence of a deity.

The field of microbiology is new. It's purely scientific yet we could not see or prove the existence of such things for millennia. It did not mean it did not exist. We know in hindsight and take for granted what has been proven.

People will always use both science or religion to try to convince us of things. Some may be true, some may not be. The clue is in the question. What is ones motivation?

As human beings we don't even need indisputable truth or facts to motivate our thinking. We jump to conclusions, have suspicions and act upon them without any proof whatsoever on a daily basis. Our thought process and belief system is built around emotions, feelings, insecurities and past experiences that do more to influence us than what religion or science can or cannot prove.

It's easy to not want to believe in a God. By believing in God we have accountability to him and since when do people want to be accountable for their actions?
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      12-10-2015, 07:22 AM   #147
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Was watching Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss last night and Krauss made quite an interesting statement.

...and I quote...

"I asked a Muslim man, if you were choking, would you want me to give you a Heimlich maneuver or pray to god to save you?"

I think he hit it dead on with this one. I'm not sure there is much more to say.
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      12-10-2015, 09:29 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik3ymomo View Post
I hear this often. While I know this wasn't your complete statement I want to use it and offer some food for thought.

It's not a new concept for the human race that we don't believe what we cant see or prove. For a purely scientific perspective it's impossible to completely rule out the existence of a deity.

The field of microbiology is new. It's purely scientific yet we could not see or prove the existence of such things for millennia. It did not mean it did not exist. We know in hindsight and take for granted what has been proven.

People will always use both science or religion to try to convince us of things. Some may be true, some may not be. The clue is in the question. What is ones motivation?

As human beings we don't even need indisputable truth or facts to motivate our thinking. We jump to conclusions, have suspicions and act upon them without any proof whatsoever on a daily basis. Our thought process and belief system is built around emotions, feelings, insecurities and past experiences that do more to influence us than what religion or science can or cannot prove.

It's easy to not want to believe in a God. By believing in God we have accountability to him and since when do people want to be accountable for their actions?
I find that last statement insulting. It implies people who don't believe conduct themselves worse than people who do. I don't believe in God, but I believe in kindness and treating everyone exactly how I would want them to treat me. Only the religious believe you need God to be a good person...which is ironic because most of the terrible people I have known in my life and a lot of the terrible people throughout history were religious.

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      12-10-2015, 10:05 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Sub light means just below.

Anyhow, what I was pointing at is everyone has a belief of some type that at this moment in time may not be 'proveable'.

People believe life exists elsewhere, they have absolutely no proof what so ever (other than probability).

Is Sub light speed achievable, at this moment in time it's impossible, however people believe in it even knowing it cannot at this moment be proved or even mathematically proven.

So pretty much everyone has a belief that cannot be proven.

Which is why I talked about facts, and math, and didnt say I believed either of things are true, or that they will definitely happen. That would be intellectually dishonest, and irresponsible.

We should all endeavor to know as much about the nature of reality as we can. The best way to do this is by using the scientific method. The proper time to believe in something is when there is sufficient evidence to do so. I want to only believe in true things.
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      12-10-2015, 12:26 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
I find that last statement insulting. It implies people who don't believe conduct themselves worse than people who do. I don't believe in God, but I believe in kindness and treating everyone exactly how I would want them to treat me. Only the religious believe you need God to be a good person...which is ironic because most of the terrible people I have known in my life and a lot of the terrible people throughout history were religious.
Why would you find my generalization insulting? Do you find my statement Inconsistent with the world we live in today? Surely you are not naive to this.

Case in point that everyone seems to be a victim. They commit a crime and it's always someone else's fault. What about simply getting a speeding ticket. It's rare that I find people simply just blame themselves. More often than not it was the cop just being a dick... Of course yes they were speeding....

People are People, religious or otherwise. Which proves a point. Do something horrific and claim some type of moral high ground. It does not make what they did the will of God. But they are pushing off the accountability of what they have done.

You can look at extremism in Islam or just look closer to home and our own history shows that the same people who came to America for religious freedom felt they could exterminate the Indigonious people because they were "Godless Savages".

Is that really what Jesus said to do? I recall a phrase of love thy enemy and love thy neighbor as thyself. Or Vengance is Mine; sayeth the Lord. The teaching is in direct opposite of the actions of the people who make the claims they are Christian and act in contrast with Christs mission.

Those people did what THEY wanted to do. They made excuses for thier actions. It has always been this way.

Don't confuse the actions of "People" with Religion.
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      12-11-2015, 11:18 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik3ymomo View Post
I hear this often. While I know this wasn't your complete statement I want to use it and offer some food for thought.

It's not a new concept for the human race that we don't believe what we cant see or prove. For a purely scientific perspective it's impossible to completely rule out the existence of a deity.

The field of microbiology is new. It's purely scientific yet we could not see or prove the existence of such things for millennia. It did not mean it did not exist. We know in hindsight and take for granted what has been proven.

People will always use both science or religion to try to convince us of things. Some may be true, some may not be. The clue is in the question. What is ones motivation?

As human beings we don't even need indisputable truth or facts to motivate our thinking. We jump to conclusions, have suspicions and act upon them without any proof whatsoever on a daily basis. Our thought process and belief system is built around emotions, feelings, insecurities and past experiences that do more to influence us than what religion or science can or cannot prove.

It's easy to not want to believe in a God. By believing in God we have accountability to him and since when do people want to be accountable for their actions?
That single statement there, is one of the single most terrifying statements going.

We are not accountable to god, we are accountable to the laws of respective countries, to our legal systems, to our law enforcement and to each other.

People are already accountable for their actions, they cannot ignore that fact and lay things on a deity.

That single statement has probably resulted in more deaths, inhumane treatment, intolerance of others, than anything else.

You can use science to prove something, whether it's through positive proof or a mathematical theory all equation.

However it is totally impossible to say you can prove something by religion, no matter what religion it is.
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      12-11-2015, 11:58 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
That single statement there, is one of the single most terrifying statements going.

We are not accountable to god, we are accountable to the laws of respective countries, to our legal systems, to our law enforcement and to each other.

People are already accountable for their actions, they cannot ignore that fact and lay things on a deity.

That single statement has probably resulted in more deaths, inhumane treatment, intolerance of others, than anything else.

You can use science to prove something, whether it's through positive proof or a mathematical theory all equation.

However it is totally impossible to say you can prove something by religion, no matter what religion it is.
It's only terrifying because you do not understand the perspective. Let's examine this from a Christianity perspective. I am not versed well in other religions so I cannot comment on what their teachings are.

Example: These people who go on mass shootings and then take their own lives believe they have beat the system and cannot be held accountable for the crimes they just committed.
I am making an assumption based off the teachings and commandments in the Judeo Christian Faith. Anyone Christian person (not in name but in doctrine that is in line with the teachings of the faith) first would not go on a mass shooting. Secondly killing themselves would be in direct conflict with the teachings. Lastly accountability for ones actions after their death would come at Gods judgement.

So the logical assumption to me and any reasonable person is that these people did not firmly believe in God.

Our laws are largely based on Judeo-Christian law in this country as is our general idea of right and wrong.

If there is no God then where does this concept of right and wrong come from?

Do you think people follow the law when they don't think you can enforce it? Drive down the highway sometime and see how fast everyone drives over the limit. Now what happens when they see a police car parked in the median?

Christians believe God is all knowing and all seeing. That's where the accountability to a God should be put into perspective.

If we are going to teach our children and society that there is no God, it's over when we die and the only accountability that we will ever have is to our government who concocted laws made up by men. Then you can continue to expect an ever increasing rise in the type of behavior I gave an example of.

I would directly tie the rise in mass shootings over the last few decades that typically end in suicide to people being indoctrinated by what is being widely accepted today that there is no God.
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      12-11-2015, 12:54 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik3ymomo View Post
It's only terrifying because you do not understand the perspective. Let's examine this from a Christianity perspective. I am not versed well in other religions so I cannot comment on what their teachings are.

Example: These people who go on mass shootings and then take their own lives believe they have beat the system and cannot be held accountable for the crimes they just committed.
I am making an assumption based off the teachings and commandments in the Judeo Christian Faith. Anyone Christian person (not in name but in doctrine that is in line with the teachings of the faith) first would not go on a mass shooting. Secondly killing themselves would be in direct conflict with the teachings. Lastly accountability for ones actions after their death would come at Gods judgement.

So the logical assumption to me and any reasonable person is that these people did not firmly believe in God.

Our laws are largely based on Judeo-Christian law in this country as is our general idea of right and wrong.

If there is no God then where does this concept of right and wrong come from?

Do you think people follow the law when they don't think you can enforce it? Drive down the highway sometime and see how fast everyone drives over the limit. Now what happens when they see a police car parked in the median?

Christians believe God is all knowing and all seeing. That's where the accountability to a God should be put into perspective.

If we are going to teach our children and society that there is no God, it's over when we die and the only accountability that we will ever have is to our government who concocted laws made up by men. Then you can continue to expect an ever increasing rise in the type of behavior I gave an example of.

I would directly tie the rise in mass shootings over the last few decades that typically end in suicide to people being indoctrinated by what is being widely accepted today that there is no God.
Unfortunately history says you are wrong. Religion has become much less pervasive over time which is why we don't have crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, etc anymore. And the catholic church has been responsible for far more atrocities than non-theists. Not too mention that no other group is more associated with molesting young boys except maybe NAMBLA: The idea that religion makes people good is just a nice pipe dream. I understand the concept, don't get me wrong, but that concept is pretty much why religion was invented in the first place....to control the masses and protect the rich from the poor.
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Last edited by Doc Oc; 12-17-2015 at 03:51 PM..
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      12-11-2015, 02:56 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik3ymomo View Post
It's only terrifying because you do not understand the perspective. Let's examine this from a Christianity perspective. I am not versed well in other religions so I cannot comment on what their teachings are.

Example: These people who go on mass shootings and then take their own lives believe they have beat the system and cannot be held accountable for the crimes they just committed.
I am making an assumption based off the teachings and commandments in the Judeo Christian Faith. Anyone Christian person (not in name but in doctrine that is in line with the teachings of the faith) first would not go on a mass shooting. Secondly killing themselves would be in direct conflict with the teachings. Lastly accountability for ones actions after their death would come at Gods judgement.

So the logical assumption to me and any reasonable person is that these people did not firmly believe in God.

Our laws are largely based on Judeo-Christian law in this country as is our general idea of right and wrong.

If there is no God then where does this concept of right and wrong come from?

Do you think people follow the law when they don't think you can enforce it? Drive down the highway sometime and see how fast everyone drives over the limit. Now what happens when they see a police car parked in the median?

Christians believe God is all knowing and all seeing. That's where the accountability to a God should be put into perspective.

If we are going to teach our children and society that there is no God, it's over when we die and the only accountability that we will ever have is to our government who concocted laws made up by men. Then you can continue to expect an ever increasing rise in the type of behavior I gave an example of.

I would directly tie the rise in mass shootings over the last few decades that typically end in suicide to people being indoctrinated by what is being widely accepted today that there is no God.
Excuse me, however never assume things.

For starters I did Theology at both school and college, so yes perfectly able to understand.

However, I have also studied a fair bit of history and experienced it as well.

As mentioned, throughout human history, Religion has been used as a way to control people and instruct doctrine / dogma / rules.

Why else do we have special schools around the world to ensure our young are indoctrinated as early as possible.

Considering the amount wars, invasions, genocide perpetrated due to religion. In a number of cases actually sanctioned and demanded by that faiths leader(s).

Surely though if you look globally, countries with multiple deities have less gun crime.

So should you not be looking to more than just one God?

I mean he may need a hand with how mental it is there with crimes....


Personally a Female God would be a better bet.
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