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      12-11-2015, 02:59 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc
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Originally Posted by Mik3ymomo View Post
It's only terrifying because you do not understand the perspective. Let's examine this from a Christianity perspective. I am not versed well in other religions so I cannot comment on what their teachings are.

Example: These people who go on mass shootings and then take their own lives believe they have beat the system and cannot be held accountable for the crimes they just committed.
I am making an assumption based off the teachings and commandments in the Judeo Christian Faith. Anyone Christian person (not in name but in doctrine that is in line with the teachings of the faith) first would not go on a mass shooting. Secondly killing themselves would be in direct conflict with the teachings. Lastly accountability for ones actions after their death would come at Gods judgement.

So the logical assumption to me and any reasonable person is that these people did not firmly believe in God.

Our laws are largely based on Judeo-Christian law in this country as is our general idea of right and wrong.

If there is no God then where does this concept of right and wrong come from?

Do you think people follow the law when they don't think you can enforce it? Drive down the highway sometime and see how fast everyone drives over the limit. Now what happens when they see a police car parked in the median?

Christians believe God is all knowing and all seeing. That's where the accountability to a God should be put into perspective.

If we are going to teach our children and society that there is no God, it's over when we die and the only accountability that we will ever have is to our government who concocted laws made up by men. Then you can continue to expect an ever increasing rise in the type of behavior I gave an example of.

I would directly tie the rise in mass shootings over the last few decades that typically end in suicide to people being indoctrinated by what is being widely accepted today that there is no God.
Unfortunately history says you are wrong. Religion has become much less pervasive over time which is why we don't have crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, etc anymore. And the catholic church has been responsible for far more atrocities than non-theists. Not too mention that no other group is more associated with molesting young boys except maybe NAMBLA The idea that religion makes people good is just a nice pipe dream. I understand the concept, don't get me wrong, but that concept is pretty much why religion was invented in the first place....to control the masses and protect the rich from the poor.
The translation of the bible into English and other languages (vs. just Latin and Hebrew), automated publishing, and literacy made the bible available to everyone. So everyone could read it and understand God's word. So this the witch hunts, radicals, etc. fell off because people could read it and see for themselves. There are more Christians on earth than ever before - not less.

This could be part of the reason for radical Islam; illiteracy is very high in the Middle East, and people only know what the Imam tells them.
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      12-11-2015, 05:32 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The translation of the bible into English and other languages (vs. just Latin and Hebrew), automated publishing, and literacy made the bible available to everyone. So everyone could read it and understand God's word. So this the witch hunts, radicals, etc. fell off because people could read it and see for themselves. There are more Christians on earth than ever before - not less.

This could be part of the reason for radical Islam; illiteracy is very high in the Middle East, and people only know what the Imam tells them.
The printing of the bible in English as opposed to Latin was 1526.

This was before the witch hunts, slightly before the radicalisation of the different 'sects' of Christianity.

There was an increase in religious intolerance,

The Spanish Inquistion had a new target rather than just torturing Jews, they could now torture Protestants and Lutherans, readily identifiable from possession of printed bibles in their own language and not Latin.

One of the reasons the witch craft trials were so vociferous, was the general populace now could read things such as 'thou shallt not suffer a witch to live'.

Previously it was just some fat bloke on a Sunday saying this, now they could read it themselves.

As for radicals, well the author of the first bible printed in English was executed for heresy by strangulation, then burned.

There were a number of rather brutal religious wars within Europe, sine decimating parts of Europe and England.

Yeah, printing it really reduced things....
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      12-11-2015, 06:11 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The translation of the bible into English and other languages (vs. just Latin and Hebrew), automated publishing, and literacy made the bible available to everyone. So everyone could read it and understand God's word. So this the witch hunts, radicals, etc. fell off because people could read it and see for themselves. There are more Christians on earth than ever before - not less.

This could be part of the reason for radical Islam; illiteracy is very high in the Middle East, and people only know what the Imam tells them.
The printing of the bible in English as opposed to Latin was 1526.

This was before the witch hunts, slightly before the radicalisation of the different 'sects' of Christianity.

There was an increase in religious intolerance,

The Spanish Inquistion had a new target rather than just torturing Jews, they could now torture Protestants and Lutherans, readily identifiable from possession of printed bibles in their own language and not Latin.

One of the reasons the witch craft trials were so vociferous, was the general populace now could read things such as 'thou shallt not suffer a witch to live'.

Previously it was just some fat bloke on a Sunday saying this, now they could read it themselves.

As for radicals, well the author of the first bible printed in English was executed for heresy by strangulation, then burned.

There were a number of rather brutal religious wars within Europe, sine decimating parts of Europe and England.

Yeah, printing it really reduced things....
The mass of people couldn't read it, and realize how it was being misused.
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      12-11-2015, 11:09 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The mass of people couldn't read it, and realize how it was being misused.
The mass of people being able to read only occurred within the last century.

This would be post world war 2 when proper schools were established.

Literacy is actually quite a new thing for the masses.

Yes some schools were started in the 19th century but not many.

During the Napoleonic Wars pretty much every non officer within any army was illiterate, yes some NCO's had some basic skills.

However within Europe religious persecution had stopped a good 100 years prior to Waterloo.

The only persecution occurring within the world by then was by Missionaries against indigenous peoples.

By the time the general populace could read, the actual people that mattered, The Middle Class has arisen and coupled with a huge leap forward in science and social understanding of values, things started to become civilised.

I would hazard a guess that post world war 2 Syria had a higher literacy rate than the USA.

It is wrong to assume people within the Middle East are illiterate, they pretty much all learn to read the Koran from a specific age.

In my opinion, being able to understand science, evolution etc and Christian values, is what defines a well rounded person.

Swing too much either side and that person becomes less human / humane.

Where keeping a population illiterate has worked well, is in countries that ban religion, China, North Korea, USSR (pre ww2).

The mass of the people were / are controlled by the state.

The other two countries that have used education as a control are two other countries that actively within the 20th Century segregated it's people due to colour, South Africa and the USA.
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      12-11-2015, 11:35 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The mass of people couldn't read it, and realize how it was being misused.
The mass of people being able to read only occurred within the last century.

This would be post world war 2 when proper schools were established.

Literacy is actually quite a new thing for the masses.

Yes some schools were started in the 19th century but not many.

During the Napoleonic Wars pretty much every non officer within any army was illiterate, yes some NCO's had some basic skills.

However within Europe religious persecution had stopped a good 100 years prior to Waterloo.

The only persecution occurring within the world by then was by Missionaries against indigenous peoples.

By the time the general populace could read, the actual people that mattered, The Middle Class has arisen and coupled with a huge leap forward in science and social understanding of values, things started to become civilised.

I would hazard a guess that post world war 2 Syria had a higher literacy rate than the USA.

It is wrong to assume people within the Middle East are illiterate, they pretty much all learn to read the Koran from a specific age.

In my opinion, being able to understand science, evolution etc and Christian values, is what defines a well rounded person.

Swing too much either side and that person becomes less human / humane.

Where keeping a population illiterate has worked well, is in countries that ban religion, China, North Korea, USSR (pre ww2).

The mass of the people were / are controlled by the state.

The other two countries that have used education as a control are two other countries that actively within the 20th Century segregated it's people due to colour, South Africa and the USA.
Not sure I understand your post, but:

Literacy in the western world was quite high several hundred years ago. Literacy in the US was about 50% at the time of Napoleon, and about 75% by the early 1800's.

Not sure what you mean by missionaries persecuting indigenous peoples?

This was my source for the Syrian illiteracy comment:
http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/08/65...oin-workforce/
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      12-12-2015, 02:51 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Not sure I understand your post, but:

Literacy in the western world was quite high several hundred years ago. Literacy in the US was about 50% at the time of Napoleon, and about 75% by the early 1800's.

Not sure what you mean by missionaries persecuting indigenous peoples?

This was my source for the Syrian illiteracy comment:
http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/08/65...oin-workforce/

Literacy was not high several hundred years ago in Europe.

http://ourworldindata.org/data/educa...edge/literacy/


The Western World was made up of pretty much Spain, Portugal, France Great Britain, a Holy Roman Empire, Italian states, the rest was under Turkish rule or getting passed around.

Yes the middle class, professional class that was slowly emerging and upper class could read and write, everyone else was limited.

One of the biggest jumps to education was printed flyers about events etc.

As for Syrian rates, for males it's around 91% for women lower at 84% as they don't get the chance for much education.


For the USA, 93 million are below an acceptable level.

http://www.rif.org/pdf/Literacy-Facts-Stats.pdf

There is a huge imbalance within the USA on literacy, even basic stuff.

It has been used historically in your country as a means to control race.

As for some newspaper article about college degrees

70% of Americans don't have a college degree.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-rick-santoru/
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      12-12-2015, 08:23 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Not sure I understand your post, but:

Literacy in the western world was quite high several hundred years ago. Literacy in the US was about 50% at the time of Napoleon, and about 75% by the early 1800's.

Not sure what you mean by missionaries persecuting indigenous peoples?

This was my source for the Syrian illiteracy comment:
http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/08/65...oin-workforce/

Literacy was not high several hundred years ago in Europe.

http://ourworldindata.org/data/educa...edge/literacy/


The Western World was made up of pretty much Spain, Portugal, France Great Britain, a Holy Roman Empire, Italian states, the rest was under Turkish rule or getting passed around.

Yes the middle class, professional class that was slowly emerging and upper class could read and write, everyone else was limited.

One of the biggest jumps to education was printed flyers about events etc.

As for Syrian rates, for males it's around 91% for women lower at 84% as they don't get the chance for much education.


For the USA, 93 million are below an acceptable level.

http://www.rif.org/pdf/Literacy-Facts-Stats.pdf

There is a huge imbalance within the USA on literacy, even basic stuff.

It has been used historically in your country as a means to control race.

As for some newspaper article about college degrees

70% of Americans don't have a college degree.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-rick-santoru/
I looked at the same link you posted - the last chart shows literacy in Europe in the mid 1800's at 60%, and about 70% in the "European Offshoots" - I'd call that pretty high, right?

The links I read show that 60% of Americans don't have a college degree, so that's close to your 70%. American stats are often skewed by immigration and illegal immigration. Estimates are 12-20M illegals alone, and we take more immigrants than anyone worldwide. And since 1965, the immigrants we take are very low in terms of education, literacy, etc.

Literacy hasn't been used to control race since 1865 in the US, and prior to that it was only in some of the southern states. At the same time, many of the northern states offered free education for the freed slaves.
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      12-12-2015, 09:08 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I looked at the same link you posted - the last chart shows literacy in Europe in the mid 1800's at 60%, and about 70% in the "European Offshoots" - I'd call that pretty high, right?

The links I read show that 60% of Americans don't have a college degree, so that's close to your 70%. American stats are often skewed by immigration and illegal immigration. Estimates are 12-20M illegals alone, and we take more immigrants than anyone worldwide. And since 1965, the immigrants we take are very low in terms of education, literacy, etc.

Literacy hasn't been used to control race since 1865 in the US, and prior to that it was only in some of the southern states. At the same time, many of the northern states offered free education for the freed slaves.
Yes mid 1800's 60's is quite high, however remember those figures are often screwed up and invariably don't contain women etc (stats and damn stats sort of thing).

This is why I said it's not been several hundred years, most people were trying to survive things like Black Death, war, famine previous to 1800.

Proper education from Sunday schools (everything, kids included worked 6 days a week) so Sunday was main day for schooling.

It's the industrial revolution and extra money before no generated, spoils of wars etc they started settIng up proper schools.

The school my daughter went to was pretty much established with money 'acquired' during Napolenoic wars.

Literacy can indirectly be used to control racial elements of society, for example overly complicated voting systems, segregation of schools and suburbs.

External to the States, we just view it all as USA, does not matter what state it occurs in, you are all tarred with the same brush.

Our Education inspectors are currently closing illegal Muslim schools.

This is where teaching people especially the young is highly dangerous, they are indoctrinated at a young age with the wrong stuff.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35070984

In this case it was elements of society using literacy and religion to indoctrinate young minds.

This is what needs stamped out very quickly.
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      12-12-2015, 09:48 AM   #163
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      12-14-2015, 07:22 PM   #164
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This has taken a turn to discussing the drawbacks of religion (of which there are many,) instead of "Proving God" which is the title of this thread.
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      12-17-2015, 06:59 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Excuse me, however never assume things.

For starters I did Theology at both school and college, so yes perfectly able to understand.

However, I have also studied a fair bit of history and experienced it as well.

As mentioned, throughout human history, Religion has been used as a way to control people and instruct doctrine / dogma / rules.

Why else do we have special schools around the world to ensure our young are indoctrinated as early as possible.

Considering the amount wars, invasions, genocide perpetrated due to religion. In a number of cases actually sanctioned and demanded by that faiths leader(s)
For someone claiming to have studied Theology and History I figured you could see the difference between the actions of people and the teachings of Christ.

As far as rules and doctrine being used to control people; that is the basis of law in a civilized society. Do you advocate anarchy? Because the laws in this country are meant to control and protect society and those laws are directly based on the Biblical law. Either they are a Farce or they aren't.

Having studied originally for a history degree I can tell you that people have been killing each other long before an established religion ever told them to. But one does not need a degree to speak the truth. Jesus Christs teachings do not sanction the things you blame on Christians. Anyone that has read the Gospels can tell you that. Probably even a 10 year old in a Sunday School class.

If you choose to reject the Bible and what it states that is entirely up to you. Misrepresenting Christ's teachings by someone who claims to be an expert is no different than the men who have killed in his name.
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      12-18-2015, 07:54 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik3ymomo View Post
For someone claiming to have studied Theology and History I figured you could see the difference between the actions of people and the teachings of Christ.

As far as rules and doctrine being used to control people; that is the basis of law in a civilized society. Do you advocate anarchy? Because the laws in this country are meant to control and protect society and those laws are directly based on the Biblical law. Either they are a Farce or they aren't.

Having studied originally for a history degree I can tell you that people have been killing each other long before an established religion ever told them to. But one does not need a degree to speak the truth. Jesus Christs teachings do not sanction the things you blame on Christians. Anyone that has read the Gospels can tell you that. Probably even a 10 year old in a Sunday School class.

If you choose to reject the Bible and what it states that is entirely up to you. Misrepresenting Christ's teachings by someone who claims to be an expert is no different than the men who have killed in his name.
The laws you refer to are based on a mix of early English and French laws, as are a huge number of 'western civilisations', these are deliberately not based on biblical laws, as both the English law and later French ones pretty much came about to give people a fair trial and to prevent the church becoming to powerful.

Prior to these the church controlled laws etc, trial by ordeal being a common religious one.


As for Christian Church, the various Papal backed Crusades.

Yes the Holy land ones were predominantly protection of that area and not seeking converts.

However, the same is not true of papal sanctioned crusades against Prussia to convert those heathens.

Then there are non sanctioned Christian crusades, such as against Lithuania.


Modern days (within last 20 years) we had medical teams in Africa getting to grips with the control with spread of AIDS. In some countries they were actually making progress.

Then what happened....

The Christian groups in America sent missionary groups over to Africa, what was one of their main messages??

Do not use contraception as it is a sin..

The result, increase in AIDS due to Christian teachings.


Considering the western world is the main area following the New Testament and teaches the most about it, we really have done a great job of butchering each other and the rest of the world.

Throughout history we have large amounts of religious backed slaughter.

Spanish Inquisition.
French Heresy crusades (Cathars / Albigensian)
Catholics - Huguenots.
Catholics - Protestants literally loads of wars and conflicts.

These were encouraged by the various religious leaders.

Yes I know this is religious leaders interpretation of Christian teachings.

If we can't trust those 'closest to God' to interpret things correctly, who can we trust?
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      12-18-2015, 10:24 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post

As for Christian Church, the various Papal backed Crusades.

Yes the Holy land ones were predominantly protection of that area and not seeking converts.

However, the same is not true of papal sanctioned crusades against Prussia to convert those heathens.

Then there are non sanctioned Christian crusades, such as against Lithuania.


Modern days (within last 20 years) we had medical teams in Africa getting to grips with the control with spread of AIDS. In some countries they were actually making progress.

Then what happened....

The Christian groups in America sent missionary groups over to Africa, what was one of their main messages??

Do not use contraception as it is a sin..

The result, increase in AIDS due to Christian teachings.


Considering the western world is the main area following the New Testament and teaches the most about it, we really have done a great job of butchering each other and the rest of the world.

Throughout history we have large amounts of religious backed slaughter.

Spanish Inquisition.
French Heresy crusades (Cathars / Albigensian)
Catholics - Huguenots.
Catholics - Protestants literally loads of wars and conflicts.

These were encouraged by the various religious leaders.

Yes I know this is religious leaders interpretation of Christian teachings.

If we can't trust those 'closest to God' to interpret things correctly, who can we trust?
I would disagree with many of your statements about the crusades; they were largely political, which at the time used the veil of "Christianity," as they were blended together (in 1000-1200 AD). Same with the Catholic/Protestant conflicts - they are actually political conflicts, not religious, in more modern times.

Regarding Africa and AIDS - Africa has had missionaries (mostly Christian) for at least 100 years now, and they have done immense good. The medical teams you mention are also largely Christian missionaries. Christians set up the medical infrastructure (hospitals, etc.) in much of Africa (which BTW the Islamists disabled or destroyed where they took control). It's not like the missionaries showed up 20 years ago with an unheard message, and it would also only be the Catholic missionaries (not Protestants, who approve of birth control short of abortion).
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      12-20-2015, 09:37 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I would disagree with many of your statements about the crusades; they were largely political, which at the time used the veil of "Christianity," as they were blended together (in 1000-1200 AD). Same with the Catholic/Protestant conflicts - they are actually political conflicts, not religious, in more modern times.

Regarding Africa and AIDS - Africa has had missionaries (mostly Christian) for at least 100 years now, and they have done immense good. The medical teams you mention are also largely Christian missionaries. Christians set up the medical infrastructure (hospitals, etc.) in much of Africa (which BTW the Islamists disabled or destroyed where they took control). It's not like the missionaries showed up 20 years ago with an unheard message, and it would also only be the Catholic missionaries (not Protestants, who approve of birth control short of abortion).
The crusades were purely religious PERIOD.

You would think after 100 years of doing missionary work Africa would be better. I guess God is not convinced yet.
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      12-20-2015, 09:57 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Mik3ymomo View Post
It's easy to not want to believe in a God. By believing in God we have accountability to him and since when do people want to be accountable for their actions?
First of all I do not say "I don't want to believe in God" because it is not a "want", it is more of a simple conclusion, to me there's no God.

To rebut your statement... No, it is not easy to not want to believe in God. Let me give you an example: While religious people have the ability to use religion to make their kids behave a certain way "Junior don't do that because you are going to hell" us Atheist parents have to explain unfairness and injustice in a more humanistic way. There is no Devil to use as the bad guy, there's only the bad guy who did evil things...

I'm making my kid see how every person is accountable for his/her actions, there's no God or Devil making you do good or bad things.
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      12-21-2015, 06:34 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
"Junior don't do that because you are going to hell"
The above may be remains of former times.
Jesus does not want us to go to hell. He's the God of love and biological well-being and flourishing
Jesus doesn't even want us to stoke fears of him. And Jesus loves you even if you don't believe in him. Being a good person is enough.
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      12-21-2015, 08:44 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I would disagree with many of your statements about the crusades; they were largely political, which at the time used the veil of "Christianity," as they were blended together (in 1000-1200 AD). Same with the Catholic/Protestant conflicts - they are actually political conflicts, not religious, in more modern times.

Regarding Africa and AIDS - Africa has had missionaries (mostly Christian) for at least 100 years now, and they have done immense good. The medical teams you mention are also largely Christian missionaries. Christians set up the medical infrastructure (hospitals, etc.) in much of Africa (which BTW the Islamists disabled or destroyed where they took control). It's not like the missionaries showed up 20 years ago with an unheard message, and it would also only be the Catholic missionaries (not Protestants, who approve of birth control short of abortion).
The Crusades were not political as such.

The power of Religion was used to motivate, cajole, intimidate, even force individuals, kings and countries to take part and importantly finance, the Church always needs its cut.

Those to the Holy Land, were in the most to initially protect Christian sites, there was also the matter of the tolls and payment of passage. So there was a fair amount of financial influence.

Those within France for example where purely down to religious intolerance and out right hate.

Those to Prussia where to kill the last heathens.

Intolerance for others is pretty much the message all religions contain.

However the Church has long been politicised and very much a bunch of money grabbing bastards (literally).

The amount of land they own is immense.

The EU and UN medical missions are those that were impacted by religious missionaries.

The Lutheran/ Protestant persecution by the Catholic Church was not political, it was a case of Our Way or the Bonfire way or those other amazing methods of torture employed and sanctioned by the Church.

The only two Political elements I can think of concerning Catholics and Protestants, are Henry VIII and Ireland (Glorious Revolution to present).

If God / Jesus exists, why do Pedo Priest live and carry out offences for so long and not self combust etc?

Why does it knowingly allow its representatives on Earth to commit heinous crimes against humanity he most vulnerable in society?
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      12-21-2015, 11:15 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiel_dafo_kenyg_as View Post
The above may be remains of former times.
Jesus does not want us to go to hell. He's the God of love and biological well-being and flourishing
Jesus doesn't even want us to stoke fears of him. And Jesus loves you even if you don't believe in him. Being a good person is enough.
Thanks for the preaching. You might be right and that doesn't matter. What it matters is how the religious Americans interpret it and pass it along to their kids. Have you heard of Sunday school? It is the most disgusting thing a parent can do to his/her kids.
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      12-21-2015, 11:57 AM   #173
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Don't give a crap. When I die and if I meet God, . " God I was wrong you do exist" Okay. But while on earth I'm not going to be concerned about a man made fictional being conceived thousands of years ago by ancient peoples who needed to explain to themselves the how & whys of their surroundings. The concept is just Silly.
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      12-21-2015, 01:58 PM   #174
longress
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Jbrock22 if only it worked that way! No unfortunately you can rape children, cut your own parents throats, and just generally be an evil person and still be allowed into heaven as long as you ask for forgiveness and believe in him. What you cannot do is doubt the existence of God for any reason, even if your the kindest soul around, as this is punished by an eternity spent in hell burning and suffering in the most unimaginable ways. Sounds like a selfish narcissitic God doesn't it?
If it weren't for fear and guilt religion would have been runout of town a long time ago! This is another reason why the story of Jesus must be spread because the sheer brutality and unjustness of his father, God, from the Old Testament was just too much for any rational person to follow.
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      12-21-2015, 02:48 PM   #175
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longress, That's what I thought almost my entire life but I was wrong. God is not a person or a ghost or whatever people tried to figure for thousands of years. God is the totality of positive energy. If you are a good person you are part of God yourself. Split a log, flip a stone, you can find God in everything as long it's not owned or made by evil.
When you die your life energy will reunite with God and - maybe - will be spread again for creating new life.
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      12-21-2015, 05:13 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiel_dafo_kenyg_as View Post
longress, That's what I thought almost my entire life but I was wrong. God is not a person or a ghost or whatever people tried to figure for thousands of years. God is the totality of positive energy. If you are a good person you are part of God yourself. Split a log, flip a stone, you can find God in everything as long it's not owned or made by evil.
When you die your life energy will reunite with God and - maybe - will be spread again for creating new life.
A nice, albeit decidedly un-Christian, way of looking at things. I largely agree.
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