BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Off-Topic Discussions Board Politics/Religion Oregon shooting

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-06-2015, 12:41 PM   #221
C5driver
Major
C5driver's Avatar
3380
Rep
1,154
Posts

Drives: 55...just kidding.
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: 33.6167 N, 117.8975 W

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
It needs to be depoliticised that is a must.

It needs to be removed from the Black and white are of Ban - not Ban.

It's a complicated nightmare for you lot over there.
This is simultaneously the most intelligent, impartial, and impossible statement I've read all day.

Kudos
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 01:10 PM   #222
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
LOL - I like how I am crazy for equating crime is not the same in rural and urban areas, but you think taking my guns away in rural areas will help stem crime in the urban area's! Once again - what it different here - it is not the guns.

You said so yourself - "There are at least 2 BIG factors...." and neither of them you listed were guns. Sounds like you are saying exactly what I was saying - those are the issues that need to be addressed - not the guns.

And if you think the American gun owners will turn in their guns in 2015 like they did gold in the 30's - I think you are grossly underestimating what will happen. There will be 150 million calls to the police station reporting stolen guns the day this is announced and a run on PVC pipe to bury them in. And FFL books being "lost" as well. And that is just for the guns that were bought after log keeping went into effect. I am not that old but have 3-4 that never went though the system. Not to mention - I can make one in a week if I need to.

And while you are probably thinking "just make it a life sentence for anyone that makes a gun in their home" - why not use that now and make it a life sentence for anyone that commits a felony with a firearm - and actually enforce it? That is what really gripes us gun owners. You want to throw us under the prison, but don't think it is unfair that a murderer can be back on the street in 4-5 years.

The most crime ridden places in the USA have always had the most gun laws. Another few laws will not change anything, at least for the criminals. Except making more victims for them.
Red:
The only thing I think will occur as a result of making guns very hard to get or impossible to get is that gun-related crime, gun injuries, and gun deaths will be reduced. I have written as much more than a few times, in this thread as well as in two others in the OT sub-forum of B-post. The first sentence of the post you quoted says, "[T]he only kind of crime that gun laws can reliably have an impact on is gun-related crime." (I realize you may not have read those other threads/posts.) Take a look at post #216 and you'll understand why that's as far as I'll go in asserting what impact gun access, availability and possession restrictions can have. I do not believe, and I have not and will not assert or conclude, that handgun prohibitions will reduce the incidence of crime in general because crimes can be committed without guns, and plenty of them are.


Blue:
You wrote, "How can you stop crime with gun laws?", thereby establishing that the context of your comments was crime in general and the impact of gun prohibitions on crime in general, rather than just gun-related crime. You later tacitly asked your reader to accept the following syllogism:
  1. Rural areas have lots of guns per lay person.
  2. Urban areas have few guns per lay person.
  3. There is little to no crime in rural areas.
  4. There is a lot of crime in urban areas.
  5. Therefore lay people owning guns reduces crime, including gun-related crime. [You didn't expressly state a conclusion of any sort for that part of your post. Instead you asked, "What is the difference?" and proceeded to say that guns are not what differs, thus implying the conclusion I note here.]
So, yes, that is what I wrote. I wrote it to point out that there are overarching environmental factors that affect the incidence of crime in rural areas that quite simply do not apply equally to committing crimes (gun-related or not) in non-rural areas, thus making the argument invalid. The incredulous tone of my comments on your syllogism reflects my surprise that you didn't consider those factors before presenting that line of argument.


Green:
It's all but certain they won't do so in 2015, but I know that the specific year isn't the point of your statement. On the other hand, if people put their guns in PVC pipes and then bury them, that would be sufficient in my mind, provided the guns stay buried. I don't actually care much whether the guns are turned in or otherwise made inaccessible. Guns buried in the ground don't shoot people or anything else, and that's good enough.


Purple:
I don't have strong views of any sort on what should be the penalties for gun possession or use/misuse. I have a strong view about gun violence, gun injuries, and gun deaths, and my view is that all three are 100% preventable. Furthermore, my view right now (see post #216), is that the only solution having any real possibility of working is for guns to simply not exist among the general public. Repeal the Dickey rider, allow the research into the correlation between guns and crime, as well as into gun-related crime, and perhaps other plausibly effective options will manifest themselves. But for now, there's really no other option beyond removing the guns or making them incredibly hard to obtain.

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 01:12 PM   #223
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Weren't the last 2 college shooters all hyped up because they were virgins/not getting any? I'd pay a small tax on my ammo to set up some gubment hoes.


And for the record, those facts may have been communicated, but they are not why either of them was "hyped."

All the best.

Edit:
My bad, I think. I see now you probably were referring to the shooters being the one's who were "hyped up" rather than it being the media that "hyped up" the stories about the shooters. (Blame it on the ambiguity caused by the passive voice and the imprecision of colloquialisms.) I do recall at least one of the shooters having griped about not having ever had sex.

Personally, I think that's his own fault. Sheep and other farm animals are not scarce. LOL
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed

Last edited by tony20009; 10-06-2015 at 02:31 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 01:26 PM   #224
Fundguy1
Major General
Fundguy1's Avatar
1992
Rep
8,339
Posts

Drives: 335 e93
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orlando, fl

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Okay....would you please share the link to the reference with the rest of us?

All the best.




http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control...ncealed-carry/
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 01:51 PM   #225
....,,,,..,,..
General
No_Country
6647
Rep
20,672
Posts

Drives: xxxx
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: xxxx

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post

Some of the stuff is good however....
Not knowing the rest of world stuff.

I checked the UK bit, a lot of playing with stats and slight case of joining unrelated points.

We have a high level of murders without weapons, also high number due to knives.

The bit on assaults forgets the fact the same area and same persons are pretty much involved in the assualt.

Glasgow in Scotland or Newcastle for example, great places however a fair bit of fighting.

It's almost cultural to go to the pub and have a fight, then a curry lol.



http://www.citizensreportuk.org/repo...olence-uk.html

Due to what appears to be slight case of misinformation not sure I would take it all as gospel.
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 02:18 PM   #226
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post


??? Are you just citing a somewhat random website that seems like it may contain the information you want it to?

There is not one statement on that entire page that refers to 2.5 million anything, much less that "2.5 mm crimes stopped annually by legal gun owners." In fact, the only statement that included the figure "2.5" is this one: "From May 2007 through November 2009 (2.5 years)..." The word "million" does not appear on the entire page, and neither does the figure 2,500,000.

Even ignoring that, the publishers/editors of that site are loons. They cite the following statement as being a myth: "460 people have been killed by CCW permit holders." Then they "correct" the "myth" by stating, "The 'study' by ... Violence Policy Center covers a six year span, meaning that at worst there is an average of 76 shootings of all types per year..." Well, okay, I won't argue with the math, but division by six doesn't make the assertion that there were 460 people killed by CCW permit holders inaccurate, i.e., mythical. I think that Gun Facts make some intriguing observations, but nowhere among the content on the page you linked did I find an argument that established the causal correlation between the events Gun Facts observed and the conclusions they draw from the coincidence of those events.

The site's publishers/editors also do what a great many gun advocacy groups do: they correlate guns with crime that does not involve guns. The fact is there is no credible basis for correlating guns with anything other than gun-related crime. When it comes to gun-related crime, the figures are not even in the millions according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. (http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun-...s/welcome.aspx)

May I suggest that you take the time to review and analyze the objective data on the matter and draw your own conclusions rather than spewing the rhetoric of groups that have their own agendas to pursue. Good places to gather the info is here -- http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbse&sid=31 -- and here -- http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dca .

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 02:26 PM   #227
Fundguy1
Major General
Fundguy1's Avatar
1992
Rep
8,339
Posts

Drives: 335 e93
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orlando, fl

iTrader: (0)

I cited the 2.5mm before.
http://www.armedwithreason.com/less-...-defense-myth/

Got a problem with it argue with the NY State Rifle and Pistol Association.

Last edited by Fundguy1; 10-06-2015 at 02:34 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 02:31 PM   #228
SaM335ic
USMC Ret.
SaM335ic's Avatar
United_States
60
Rep
129
Posts

Drives: 2016 JKU and 2013 F30 335i
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Skagit Valley, WA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2010 335i  [0.00]
For the people who think limiting gun access/ banning handguns is going to stop anything I think it wouldn't work. Some law abiding citizens may turn in there guns, some may hide them. Less may carry to protect themselves. The ones who do will question if they where to use one in there defense what punishment will be set against them. So that's a few things that will go through the law abiding peoples minds. Now lets look at the criminal minds. criminal minded person, got a gun that ether they legally obtained or illegal got a hold of. they are not going to turn in ether of them most likely. Now law abiding people are defenseless. Criminals are going note that. I would almost guarantee after the government did there round up, that small weapon crimes will drastically rise. More gas stations robbed, more muggings by criminals with guns, gang activity on a rise. All because people think gun laws stop criminals. they only make criminals.
__________________
http://www.e90post.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic215870_1.gif

Sold* 2010 335i with Active Autowerke cat-less DP's, Cat-back exhaust, CP, and BOV, AFE stage 2 sealed intake, JB4 G5, BMS OCC, BMS oil cooler valve, Alpina Transmission flash and other misc coding.
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 02:32 PM   #229
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
I cited the 2.5mm before.
I saw the "underline" link and clicked on it. There's nothing on that page supporting the 2.5mm.

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 02:35 PM   #230
Fundguy1
Major General
Fundguy1's Avatar
1992
Rep
8,339
Posts

Drives: 335 e93
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orlando, fl

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I saw the "underline" link and clicked on it. There's nothing on that page supporting the 2.5mm.

All the best.
Posted above.
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 02:36 PM   #231
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Do you understand I wasn't in this case or most of the ones I state trying to be accurate? It's called making a point. Gosh if I said it feels like 1000 degrees out here you'd correct me and say it's 89.6 Fahrenheit. And post a link. Have you ever been laid?
As a matter of fact, it's obvious you made no effort to be accurate. It's just as obvious that it's hard to cogently make a point when the support one uses to make it is specious and/or sophistic. I would ask if you understand that.

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 03:13 PM   #232
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
...

The estimate is 2.5 million crimes have been by armed citizens with concealed weapons permits. These would not have been the good outcomes without their guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Red. I meant when committing a crime with a gun. Not when committing a crime. Criminals don't typically rob, rape or burglarize humping around with a long gun.

Blue
According to www.nysrpa.org 2.5 million is annual. But what matters most is if more crimes were stopped or foiled than committed by legal gun owners. I don't think that's debateable even for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I don't know if it is or not because it's not crystal clear to me what that sentence actually means. [referring to the second sentence in the section headed "Blue."]

Red:
Are you really trying to tell me that what you meant was "Criminals almost always use a handgun of some sort when committing a crime with a gun?" Well no sh*t. That's the whole reason the debate is focused largely around handguns. Nobody is worried about what kinds of guns non-would be criminals have or use.

All the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
So we agree here.

As for the carry permit stopping crime, closest stats I saw were 2.5 mm crimes stopped annually by legal gun owners and 0.1% +/- gun crimes committed by permit holders, which by the way seems to be the lowest of all groups tested including cops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Do you understand I wasn't in this case or most of the ones I state trying to be accurate? It's called making a point. Gosh if I said it feels like 1000 degrees out here you'd correct me and say it's 89.6 Fahrenheit. And post a link. Have you ever been laid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Okay....would you please share the link to the reference with the rest of us?

All the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I see that you provided a link, but I don't see the information you cited shown at that link.

All the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
??? Are you just citing a somewhat random website that seems like it may contain the information you want it to?

There is not one statement on that entire page that refers to 2.5 million anything, much less that "2.5 mm crimes stopped annually by legal gun owners." In fact, the only statement that included the figure "2.5" is this one: "From May 2007 through November 2009 (2.5 years)..." The word "million" does not appear on the entire page, and neither does the figure 2,500,000.

...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
I cited the 2.5mm before.
http://www.armedwithreason.com/less-...-defense-myth/

Got a problem with it argue with the NY State Rifle and Pistol Association.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Posted above.

???

Red:
That is not at all the link you cited earlier. What you provided earlier is " http://www.nysrpa.org/ ."

I don't have an issue with the citation -- at least not just now because I haven't yet read it. I have an issue with trying (1) to follow your posts. For example, looking at your comments above, tell us which is it that you believe we will find asserted by any of the references to which you linked and that have to do with the 2.5mm figure?
  • 2.5 million crimes have been by armed citizens with concealed weapons permits

    or
  • 2.5 mm crimes stopped annually by legal gun owners
Is it that the 2.5mm figure is merely coincidentally connected with two two data points?


I don't have any inherent desire to be critical of your posts and/or writing, but the fact is that all I have to go on is what you write. You write the words; I read them and attempt to interpret and consider the points you make as best I can. With the line of discussion shown above, I don't know what to make of what you wrote, and I have yet to see the evidence to which you referred exist at the places in which you say it exists.



It's obvious that what you've written is unclear and makes no sense, and yet you think it does. Well, maybe it does somewhere in your mind, but I can't read your mind; I can only read what you write.


All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed

Last edited by tony20009; 10-06-2015 at 03:21 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 03:50 PM   #233
Fundguy1
Major General
Fundguy1's Avatar
1992
Rep
8,339
Posts

Drives: 335 e93
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orlando, fl

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
As a matter of fact, it's obvious you made no effort to be accurate. It's just as obvious that it's hard to cogently make a point when the support one uses to make it is specious and/or sophistic. I would ask if you understand that.

All the best.
I'm not citing for a scientific paper. If the number is one or 1% vs 25% there's no need. The number will vary anyway from second to second as data is added. A generality and trend is all one can hope for.
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 03:51 PM   #234
Fundguy1
Major General
Fundguy1's Avatar
1992
Rep
8,339
Posts

Drives: 335 e93
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orlando, fl

iTrader: (0)

I posted that link because they were the originators of the graphic. It's on the graphic.

I'm a math brain, not a language brain. I got As in English because it was easy and I made an effort to do it well. I got As in math because it was easy and I didn't need to make an effort. I can't remember studying once through high school but yet got into every school I applied to except MIT because of my asshole English teacher.

But since then I wrote "the book" on mutual funds, managed accounts, and annuities for one of the major wire houses so I can't be that bad.
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 04:02 PM   #235
gonzo
Lieutenant General
gonzo's Avatar
United_States
8104
Rep
13,539
Posts

Drives: as many as possible
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: TeXXXas

iTrader: (0)

Our liar and chief explained:

As he has so often done before the powder is dry after similar incidents, Obama used his bully pulpit (emphasis on "bully") to misstate statistics as if he were trying for a record number of Pinocchios from fact-checkers.

He said: "We know that states with the most gun laws tend to have the fewest gun deaths. So the notion that gun laws don't work — or just will make it harder for law-abiding citizens, and criminals will still get their guns — is not borne out by the evidence."

What he conveniently omitted is that Oregon had recently strengthened its laws on gun sales and is above average among the states on gun regulation.

It is one of only 18 states that require universal background checks before the sale of any firearm.

Being a proud Chicagoan, Obama is surely aware that his beloved city, which has distinguished itself in recent years for epic gun violence and death, is in a state that has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. How, then, can he claim that gun laws work? And how would implementing his idea of "common-sense gun-safety laws" make sense?

Though the United States has a high actual number of fatalities from mass shootings given its larger population, Obama ignores that other nations — such as Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Israel and Switzerland, which all have restrictive gun laws — have higher ratios of such shootings per capita.

The president also fails to acknowledge author John Lott's findings as of 2010 that all the multiple-victim public shootings (where three or more were killed) in Western Europe and in the United States occurred where civilians were not allowed to carry guns.

Charles C.W. Cooke, in his "The Conservatarian Manifesto," urges that we regularly debunk "the claim that America is in the midst of a gun-violence 'epidemic'. ... Two reports, both released in May 2013, revealed a striking drop in gun crime over the past twenty years." Cooke writes that "during the very period that gun laws have been dramatically liberalized across the whole country, gun crime has dropped substantially."

In his rant, Obama didn't just distort the evidence. He effectively accused the Republican Congress of allowing these deaths by opposing gun control laws for political reasons, proving that projection is still an important weapon in his partisan arsenal. At a time when he should be using his office and his influence to urge healing and unity, Obama uses them for strident community organizing to advance his agenda.

It is instructive that Obama rages at conservatives and scapegoats the weapons themselves rather than the criminals involved or the state of the human condition that underlies their actions.

It is remarkable that he demands an unconstitutional and meaningless change in the laws purportedly to save innocent lives but vigorously opposes all laws that would protect innocent babies in the womb.

And it is disgraceful that he seeks to inflame our emotions to seduce us into ignoring the facts and suspending our critical faculties long enough to surrender our vital Second Amendment rights.



Destroy America Obama.
__________________
Crazy Diamond

Last edited by gonzo; 10-06-2015 at 05:07 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 05:09 PM   #236
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Our liar and chief explained:

...
When I read the phrase above, I thought you were referring jocularly to Fundguy1.

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 05:12 PM   #237
unluky
Captain
unluky's Avatar
412
Rep
875
Posts

Drives: 04 z4 3.0 Sport & 15 X5 35i XD
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sedalia, MO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Red:
The only thing I think will occur as a result of making guns very hard to get or impossible to get is that gun-related crime, gun injuries, and gun deaths will be reduced. I have written as much more than a few times, in this thread as well as in two others in the OT sub-forum of B-post. The first sentence of the post you quoted says, "[T]he only kind of crime that gun laws can reliably have an impact on is gun-related crime." (I realize you may not have read those other threads/posts.) Take a look at post #216 and you'll understand why that's as far as I'll go in asserting what impact gun access, availability and possession restrictions can have. I do not believe, and I have not and will not assert or conclude, that handgun prohibitions will reduce the incidence of crime in general because crimes can be committed without guns, and plenty of them are.


Blue:
You wrote, "How can you stop crime with gun laws?", thereby establishing that the context of your comments was crime in general and the impact of gun prohibitions on crime in general, rather than just gun-related crime. You later tacitly asked your reader to accept the following syllogism:
  1. Rural areas have lots of guns per lay person.
  2. Urban areas have few guns per lay person.
  3. There is little to no crime in rural areas.
  4. There is a lot of crime in urban areas.
  5. Therefore lay people owning guns reduces crime, including gun-related crime. [You didn't expressly state a conclusion of any sort for that part of your post. Instead you asked, "What is the difference?" and proceeded to say that guns are not what differs, thus implying the conclusion I note here.]
So, yes, that is what I wrote. I wrote it to point out that there are overarching environmental factors that affect the incidence of crime in rural areas that quite simply do not apply equally to committing crimes (gun-related or not) in non-rural areas, thus making the argument invalid. The incredulous tone of my comments on your syllogism reflects my surprise that you didn't consider those factors before presenting that line of argument.


Green:
It's all but certain they won't do so in 2015, but I know that the specific year isn't the point of your statement. On the other hand, if people put their guns in PVC pipes and then bury them, that would be sufficient in my mind, provided the guns stay buried. I don't actually care much whether the guns are turned in or otherwise made inaccessible. Guns buried in the ground don't shoot people or anything else, and that's good enough.


Purple:
I don't have strong views of any sort on what should be the penalties for gun possession or use/misuse. I have a strong view about gun violence, gun injuries, and gun deaths, and my view is that all three are 100% preventable. Furthermore, my view right now (see post #216), is that the only solution having any real possibility of working is for guns to simply not exist among the general public. Repeal the Dickey rider, allow the research into the correlation between guns and crime, as well as into gun-related crime, and perhaps other plausibly effective options will manifest themselves. But for now, there's really no other option beyond removing the guns or making them incredibly hard to obtain.

All the best.
We will just have to agree to disagree. I will continue to vote to punish those that actually commit the crime instead of voting that all people with guns are just criminals waiting to happen.

Banning guns will solve nothing. Prohibition should have taught this country what happens when you ban something. Look at 2013 - the mere mention of a ban sent all firearms related products into a 10 fold sales frenzy. So if you think that people that race to buy something before it is banned will then hand it over when it is banned - you should sell what you are smoking.

It kills me that people who will walk across a cross walk all day long with hundreds of people they do not know holding back their 2 ton cars with just a partial foot on the brake from mowing down everyone in front of them, somehow is scared to death of someone that has a handgun in their glove compartment. I guess those are all potential road rage killers too I guess.

We could save way more people by banning cars, but since you have one you are of course not for saving THOSE people......lol
__________________
2015 X5 XDrive 35i - 2004 Z4 3.0 Sport
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 05:18 PM   #238
unluky
Captain
unluky's Avatar
412
Rep
875
Posts

Drives: 04 z4 3.0 Sport & 15 X5 35i XD
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sedalia, MO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Our liar and chief explained:

As he has so often done before the powder is dry after similar incidents, Obama used his bully pulpit (emphasis on "bully") to misstate statistics as if he were trying for a record number of Pinocchios from fact-checkers.

He said: "We know that states with the most gun laws tend to have the fewest gun deaths. So the notion that gun laws don't work or just will make it harder for law-abiding citizens, and criminals will still get their guns is not borne out by the evidence."

What he conveniently omitted is that Oregon had recently strengthened its laws on gun sales and is above average among the states on gun regulation.

It is one of only 18 states that require universal background checks before the sale of any firearm.

Being a proud Chicagoan, Obama is surely aware that his beloved city, which has distinguished itself in recent years for epic gun violence and death, is in a state that has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation. How, then, can he claim that gun laws work? And how would implementing his idea of "common-sense gun-safety laws" make sense?

Though the United States has a high actual number of fatalities from mass shootings given its larger population, Obama ignores that other nations such as Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Israel and Switzerland, which all have restrictive gun laws have higher ratios of such shootings per capita.

The president also fails to acknowledge author John Lott's findings as of 2010 that all the multiple-victim public shootings (where three or more were killed) in Western Europe and in the United States occurred where civilians were not allowed to carry guns.

Charles C.W. Cooke, in his "The Conservatarian Manifesto," urges that we regularly debunk "the claim that America is in the midst of a gun-violence 'epidemic'. ... Two reports, both released in May 2013, revealed a striking drop in gun crime over the past twenty years." Cooke writes that "during the very period that gun laws have been dramatically liberalized across the whole country, gun crime has dropped substantially."

In his rant, Obama didn't just distort the evidence. He effectively accused the Republican Congress of allowing these deaths by opposing gun control laws for political reasons, proving that projection is still an important weapon in his partisan arsenal. At a time when he should be using his office and his influence to urge healing and unity, Obama uses them for strident community organizing to advance his agenda.

It is instructive that Obama rages at conservatives and scapegoats the weapons themselves rather than the criminals involved or the state of the human condition that underlies their actions.

It is remarkable that he demands an unconstitutional and meaningless change in the laws purportedly to save innocent lives but vigorously opposes all laws that would protect innocent babies in the womb.

And it is disgraceful that he seeks to inflame our emotions to seduce us into ignoring the facts and suspending our critical faculties long enough to surrender our vital Second Amendment rights.



Destroy America Obama.
Another thing he likes to forget....I was in DC when his democratically controlled Senate would not pass the Manchin-Toomey bill - he could not even get all the Dem's to vote for it. If you can not even convince all your own party to do it, then don't point the blame at others either.
__________________
2015 X5 XDrive 35i - 2004 Z4 3.0 Sport
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 05:32 PM   #239
MiddleAgedAl
Lieutenant
100
Rep
418
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sitting down, facing the keyboard

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
But the biggest indicator that I should disbelieve most of what you aver is that there is no high school graduate -- and especially none who've matriculated at and later graduate from college -- who doesn't know that the top student(s) in a graduating class are called "valedictorians" not "valid Victorians." It doesn't even matter what school system one attended; the word is just part of the English vernacular.


All the best.
I was also a valid victorian, and I didnt get into MIT either. Clearly it was because the teechur was mean. All you teechurs are mean, with your "book learnin", and yer "facts", and stuff. Books is hard. I also matriculated a lot in high school, but mostly that was during the time I didnt have a girlfriend.
__________________
If you want something you've never had before, then you better be prepared to do something you've never done before.
Appreciate 1
      10-06-2015, 05:38 PM   #240
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
I was also a valid victorian, and I didnt get into MIT either. Clearly it was because the teechur was mean. All you teechurs are mean, with your "book learnin", and yer "facts", and stuff. Books is hard. I also matriculated a lot in high school, but mostly that was during the time I didnt have a girlfriend.



That is easily the funniest post I've ever read on this website!

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 06:21 PM   #241
1MOREMOD
2018 track days - 0 ridge 1:52:24 pacific 1:33:30
1MOREMOD's Avatar
United_States
9807
Rep
22,543
Posts

Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

iTrader: (5)

Who said valid Victorian?
Appreciate 0
      10-06-2015, 06:27 PM   #242
tony20009
Major General
tony20009's Avatar
United_States
761
Rep
5,665
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i - Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
We will just have to agree to disagree. I will continue to vote to punish those that actually commit the crime instead of voting that all people with guns are just criminals waiting to happen.

Banning guns will solve nothing. Prohibition should have taught this country what happens when you ban something. Look at 2013 - the mere mention of a ban sent all firearms related products into a 10 fold sales frenzy. So if you think that people that race to buy something before it is banned will then hand it over when it is banned - you should sell what you are smoking.

It kills me that people who will walk across a cross walk all day long with hundreds of people they do not know holding back their 2 ton cars with just a partial foot on the brake from mowing down everyone in front of them, somehow is scared to death of someone that has a handgun in their glove compartment. I guess those are all potential road rage killers too I guess.

We could save way more people by banning cars, but since you have one you are of course not for saving THOSE people......lol
What is there to disagree with in the following assertion: "If it is impossible for people to possess guns, there will be no no gun violence, no gun injuries and no deaths as a result of one's having been shot by a gun." You can disagree with that if you want to but I damn sure won't.

Yes, it's a very simplistic claim, but it's impossible for it not to be true. It's also, because of the Dickey Amendment, the most sophisticated claim on the matter of guns and gun violence/deaths that can be made and that is sure to always be true.

Blue:
Even though everyone who has never committed a crime -- you and I included -- can in the extreme be seen as a criminal who has not done their dastardly deed, the reality is that nobody is suggesting that in any real sense. Moreover, nobody has or will offer for referendum containing the inference you've made from my earlier statement, and I wouldn't want them to.

I realize you're using dramatic effect to make your point, but the way you presented it makes it seem as though I've literally espoused a referendum measure of the sort you described. I have done nothing of the sort.

Green:
Well, you see, there's the problem. The Dickey Amendment makes it just as impossible to show that such a prohibition won't work as it makes impossible to show that it will.

Red:
I don't know why. Surely law enforcement official will have an easier time tracking down the owners, and quite likely drivers of the cars, than they will doing the same for a shooter who shoots a single person and flees the scene.

I discussed the risk profiles associated with committing crimes in rural vs. non-rural areas. Need I do the same for committing a fatal crime using a car vs. using a gun? Are the huge differences not obvious to you? Do you really not understand the role that risk plays in one's opting to commit a crime? Or even that it plays in just about any decision people make?

Orange:
I really would not have a problem with cars being banned if the circumstances of car related deaths/violence mirrored those of gun-related deaths and violence. I think you and most people would have a far bigger problem with that than I would.

I am sure I wouldn't like that to happen, but I am equally sure I could live with it. Insofar as were it to happen, everyone would be "in the same boat" as I with regard to transportation, whatever be the impacts, we'd all bear them and that means that our expectations of one another would change in accordance with nobody having a car. And that would be fine with me.

All the best.
__________________
Cheers,
Tony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'07, e92 335i, Sparkling Graphite, Coral Leather, Aluminum, 6-speed
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:55 AM.




bmw
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST