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      02-15-2016, 08:34 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
You are all whinging about the federal income tax. It's far from being the only tax. The 4 guys who paid nothing for dinner still had to buy gas to get there, and they went back to some kind of residence after dinner also. They wore clothes. Etcetera and so on.

When the full total tax load is taken into consideration the whole "rich pay everything poor pay nothing" argument you love so much simply collapses. It only stands up when the only tax being considered is federal income tax.
I'm familiar with this type of argument, as well. Please confine your comments to the taxes we were discussing and are easily quantified: Local, State, and Federal.

I respectfully ask you now...what is the maximum tax, reflected as a percentage, that any working person should have to pay? I'd like to request a number such as: 2, 67, 13, 96, 53, etc.

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful answer.
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      02-15-2016, 08:36 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Got another personal favorite for you and the group...

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." ~ Adrian Rogers
This is one of my favorites.
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      02-15-2016, 08:36 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Not mine, but I often refer to this when people bring up taxes...

"How Taxes Work . . .

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men the poorest would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man the richest would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man who pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too ... It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered, a little late what was very important. They were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! Imagine that!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

Where would that leave the rest? Unfortunately, most taxing authorities anywhere cannot seem to grasp this rather straightforward logic!"

You cannot give to one which is not first taken from another...
That's the liberal let's not see what's happening view.
The reality is:

1. The top 1% wealthiest Americans pay for nearly half the taxes already. This is up from 17% in 1982.

What does this mean? They have less to spend on hiring people and expanding their businesses. Less jobs
http://www.cato.org/publications/com...ates-wont-work

Taxing the rich won't redistribute wealth. It will kill the economy, jobs, and further increase the disparity between the haves and have nots. This is shown repeatedly again and again historically.

2. If you tax this group 100% it won't make a dent in the tax burden the Democrats and some republicans have given us.

What does this mean? In order to pay for this stuff extra taxes proposed by crash and bernie and the lying hag will be on the middle class.

3. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world already

What does this mean? Companies like Carrier AC who just announced its moving operations to mexico, are streaming out of the US taking their jobs with them.

4. The current tax code allows wealthy individuals and corporations loopholes to not pay taxes. These are there as payoffs by both parties for support for being elected. Oil, farm, car companies, banks, etc. A flat tax proposed by republicans would eliminate these. The Democrats don't want these. Why? Because they benefit most from these payoffs.

5. A flat tax or consumption tax would make the lower class pay taxes too.
What does this mean? That they would only be affected of they got a job and made monet instead of sitting on the porch drinking gin and juice and collecting their government checks.

Any other 3rd grade interpretations you need enlightening on?

Last edited by Fundguy1; 02-15-2016 at 08:42 AM..
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      02-15-2016, 08:43 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb
You are all whinging about the federal income tax. It's far from being the only tax. The 4 guys who paid nothing for dinner still had to buy gas to get there, and they went back to some kind of residence after dinner also. They wore clothes. Etcetera and so on.

When the full total tax load is taken into consideration the whole "rich pay everything poor pay nothing" argument you love so much simply collapses. It only stands up when the only tax being considered is federal income tax.
Ah....the COL conversation has now come into play....

To your point - why didn't the poorest use the efficient and low cost mass transit system.

Or shop at Goodwill for wonderful and viable clothing goods....at extremely low costs.

It amazes me how people that embrace enterprise and find success are vilified...
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      02-15-2016, 08:43 AM   #159
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How will there be "savings" if we are all paying for both through higher taxes? The only savings will be by those who don't pay taxes - which means that those who do will be paying twice.

Wasn't Obamacare supposed to save us all money? That didn't work out so well either.
If you'd actually bother to read Bernie Sander's tax plan the increase for the majority of Americans, if any, will be offset by health care and tuition savings. Those with a tangible increase in taxes are already in a position where those hot items aren't really affecting them in the first place.

Obamacare would have worked, in its original form, but too many people locked in their ways crying muh taxes and muh freedums made it to a stripped down compromise shell of itself.
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      02-15-2016, 08:48 AM   #160
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@Fundguy1

Did you just call me a LIBERAL?!?!

Them's fightin words.....
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      02-15-2016, 08:53 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
How will there be "savings" if we are all paying for both through higher taxes? The only savings will be by those who don't pay taxes - which means that those who do will be paying twice.

Wasn't Obamacare supposed to save us all money? That didn't work out so well either.
If you'd actually bother to read Bernie Sander's tax plan the increase for the majority of Americans, if any, will be offset by health care and tuition savings. Those with a tangible increase in taxes are already in a position where those hot items aren't really affecting them in the first place.

Obamacare would have worked, in its original form, but too many people locked in their ways crying muh taxes and muh freedums made it to a stripped down compromise shell of itself.
Beanies plan will cost Trillions.....
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Poop shit, shit and poop. I'm mildly angry now.
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      02-15-2016, 08:56 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Beanies plan will cost Trillions.....
Is that what Trump told you?

Just implementing a single payer system alone will save trillions when our hilariously inflated health care costs deflate.
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      02-15-2016, 08:58 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Beartato
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Beanies plan will cost Trillions.....
Is that what Trump told you?

Just implementing a single payer system alone will save trillions when our hilariously inflated health care costs deflate.
Nope - some really smart Economics dude that does this for a living told me via the Internet.....

Oh - that single payer system eliminates how many jobs....?
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      02-15-2016, 09:01 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beartato
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Beanies plan will cost Trillions.....
Is that what Trump told you?

Just implementing a single payer system alone will save trillions when our hilariously inflated health care costs deflate.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/03/pf/t...s-health-plan/

Trillions....
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      02-15-2016, 09:04 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Nope - some really smart Economics dude that does this for a living told me via the Internet.....

Oh - that single payer system eliminates how many jobs....?
None. Just like it is now, doctors who don't accept medicare can still practice medicine.

This is the problem having these types of discussions is it's all speculation at this point. Some people's analysis have come back saying the tax plan would work, some have said otherwise.
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      02-15-2016, 09:21 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Nope - some really smart Economics dude that does this for a living told me via the Internet.....

Oh - that single payer system eliminates how many jobs....?
None. Just like it is now, doctors who don't accept medicare can still practice medicine.

This is the problem having these types of discussions is it's all speculation at this point. Some people's analysis have come back saying the tax plan would work, some have said otherwise.
Here's what I know....

I am tired of others reaching into my pocket and funding programs that 'may' work....or watching a government tax and spend with little fiscal responsibility or accountability.

Don't misunderstand - I believe in, and support entitlement programs for the truly needy. Having been a child of a couple such programs, I understand how impactful assistance can be.

What I do not support is the greed and corruption, or the abuse of these programs and the politicians that run on agendas that pander to those who feel 'entitled'.
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      02-15-2016, 09:33 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Here's what I know....

I am tired of others reaching into my pocket and funding programs that 'may' work....or watching a government tax and spend with little fiscal responsibility or accountability.

Don't misunderstand - I believe in, and support entitlement programs for the truly needy. Having been a child of a couple such programs, I understand how impactful assistance can be.

What I do not support is the greed and corruption, or the abuse of these programs and the politicians that run on agendas that pander to those who feel 'entitled'.
I'm all for that. As much as I support Bernie Sanders there is a percentage of his supports who I can't stand, which are the entitled "I want free stuff" types. I'm talking about the Occupy-freetards.

The reality is even any candidate's tax plan or any proposed political change really won't make it past the election in its whole form.
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      02-15-2016, 09:45 AM   #168
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Lol i haven't read up much on his tax plans. 62% + taxes if you make 250k or more? Who is actually seeing this and thinking its a good idea?
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      02-15-2016, 10:03 AM   #169
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Lol i haven't read up much on his tax plans. 62% + taxes if you make 250k or more? Who is actually seeing this and thinking its a good idea?
Those who like, 'soaking' the 'rich'. $250K isn't what it used to be.
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      02-15-2016, 10:11 AM   #170
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Ah....the COL conversation has now come into play....
Not exactly. I'm referring to total taxes paid as a percentage of household income. It only relates to cost of living inasmuch as everyone has to buy food, gas, etc. and is therefore paying taxes other than federal income tax. See graphs below.
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It amazes me how people that embrace enterprise and find success are vilified...
I don't recall doing that. But if it makes you feel better to think that I do, by all means have at it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...e-of-tax-data/



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      02-15-2016, 10:15 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Not exactly. I'm referring to total taxes paid as a percentage of household income. It only relates to cost of living inasmuch as everyone has to buy food, gas, etc. and is therefore paying taxes other than federal income tax. See graphs below.
I don't recall doing that. But if it makes you feel better to think that I do, by all means have at it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...e-of-tax-data/



I ask you this: What do you think the maximum any individual/family should have to pay, reflected as a percentage?
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      02-15-2016, 10:18 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beartato
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Beanies plan will cost Trillions.....
Is that what Trump told you?

Just implementing a single payer system alone will save trillions when our hilariously inflated health care costs deflate.
Our healthcare costs will not deflate at all with a single-payer system - if anything, they will rise even faster, and service will get far worse. A significant portion of our healthcare costs are due to:

1. The US foots the bill for drug and medical device advancements worldwide. We are the only country where drug/device companies are allowed to charge more than it costs them to make their products, so that they can recoup their development costs. The rest of the world gets our medical advancement, without paying for it like we do. If we stop, there will be no advancements. Some say the US government should pay for that as well (remember the "government should pay for stem cell research" debate?), but then us taxpayers wind up paying for that as well.

2. The US is the only country with contingency-fee lawsuits, where you can hire a lawyer to sue someone for anything, and if you lose you still pay nothing. Everywhere else, the loser pays the winner's legal costs. So lawyers don't take stupid cases, with the hopes that the insurance company will settle out of court because it's too expensive to defend themselves. That's why we have ambulance-chasing lawyers suing docs, nurses, etc. for ridiculous stuff. Watch an hour of daytime network TV and ask yourself why all the personal injury lawyers are advertising to find people who were "hurt by this drug, doc, etc. The cost of malpractice insurance, and the "cover-my-ass" ordering of tests, drugs, etc. by the healthcare world is responsible for as much as 1/4 of the cost of our healthcare system.

Solving #1 means there is no more medical advancement - is that a solution?

Solving #2 means upsetting the Trial Lawyers, who are historically the top contributor group to the Democrats (including Obama). So I doubt that will happen.

Does Bernie's plan address either of these points? If not, it's completely unrealistic.
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      02-15-2016, 10:21 AM   #173
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I ask you this: What do you think the maximum any individual/family should have to pay, reflected as a percentage?
20%. You?
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      02-15-2016, 10:22 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beartato
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
How will there be "savings" if we are all paying for both through higher taxes? The only savings will be by those who don't pay taxes - which means that those who do will be paying twice.

Wasn't Obamacare supposed to save us all money? That didn't work out so well either.
If you'd actually bother to read Bernie Sander's tax plan the increase for the majority of Americans, if any, will be offset by health care and tuition savings. Those with a tangible increase in taxes are already in a position where those hot items aren't really affecting them in the first place.

Obamacare would have worked, in its original form, but too many people locked in their ways crying muh taxes and muh freedums made it to a stripped down compromise shell of itself.
Dude - Obamacare never would have worked in any form. I work in this world - it was a sham from the beginning.
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      02-15-2016, 10:23 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93 View Post
Ah....the COL conversation has now come into play....
Not exactly. I'm referring to total taxes paid as a percentage of household income. It only relates to cost of living inasmuch as everyone has to buy food, gas, etc. and is therefore paying taxes other than federal income tax. See graphs below.
Quote:
It amazes me how people that embrace enterprise and find success are vilified...
I don't recall doing that. But if it makes you feel better to think that I do, by all means have at it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...e-of-tax-data/



So - I make more, therefore I should pay more..? When the bucket runs dry...and business leaves the country (Carrier anyone?) - who will the government tax then?

How's that system working now..? Tax and spend doesn't work.

Trillions in debt with no viable plan for debt reduction - from either party.

Show me one government run program that is run more efficiently or to break even than in the private sector.
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      02-15-2016, 10:26 AM   #176
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Interesting information.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/dis...-united-states
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