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      12-09-2019, 12:12 PM   #2575
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Originally Posted by dsad1 View Post
So should we get rid of all adaptive cruise controls since some people seem to take advantage of the technology? These same accidents happened before Tesla even existed.

The problem is that no one is educating the drivers on how to use the technology. Even if he was looking at the road, he probably would have expected the car would stop, as most people do. But it specifically says in the manual of every car with adaptive cruise control that the car will not brake in that situation.
Yes, we should.
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      12-09-2019, 12:16 PM   #2576
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Originally Posted by King_Leonard View Post
Demonstrating the intelligence to properly use ACC or autonomous driving technologies should be made part of the DRIVER'S LICENSING EXAM.

If we can't fix stupid, at least weed it out.
How about we just teach people to drive better and not let people who can't capture the concept of car control, situational awareness, and personal responsibility earn a driver's license. Technology can not correct human aptitude nor correct human behavior.
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      12-09-2019, 12:21 PM   #2577
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
How about we just teach people to drive better and not let people who can't capture the concept of car control, situational awareness, and personal responsibility earn a driver's license. Technology can not correct human aptitude nor correct human behavior.
Agree, per my posts. No system can be engineered to be both useful and idiot-proof. We need fewer idiots behind the wheel.
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      12-09-2019, 12:24 PM   #2578
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Tesla is level 2, user should be aware and act as such...
Tesla calls it autopilot. 99% of people believe airplanes fly themselves. Airplanes to not fly themselves, pilots watch the airplane fly under automated control. Taking the same approach, trying to explain to Tesla buyers that they must watch the car drive under automated control would not sell very many Teslas. People equate Tesla's autopilot to their automatic dishwashing machine. No one sits in their kitchen and watches their dishwasher wash the dishes.

If an autopiloted Tesla ever runs into me and I am injured, I will sue the living shit out of them, Tesla, and Musk. I hope the State and police officer in this case do the same.
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      12-09-2019, 12:30 PM   #2579
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
yeah thats the problem though. People are being told the cars drive themselves. walked into a tesla store while i was out shopping the other day and some of the shit the salespeople said was ridiculous. I wanted to just pull up youtube vids of tesla fails and cast it to their TV.
To me this is no different than car manufacturers commercials about AWD equipped vehicles etc. Subaru being the worst offender here. The amount times I've heard someone say "I'm fine, I have AWD."
I have a Subaru! I say "I'm fine, I have AWD!"

BUT

I know that AWD does not give you more traction going into the corners, but instead during recovery. 4 wheels with no traction is still no traction, under power or not.
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      12-09-2019, 12:32 PM   #2580
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Tesla calls it autopilot. 99% of people believe airplanes fly themselves. Airplanes to not fly themselves, pilots watch the airplane fly under automated control. Taking the same approach, trying to explain to Tesla buyers that they must watch the car drive under automated control would not sell very many Teslas. People equate Tesla's autopilot to their automatic dishwashing machine. No one sits in their kitchen and watches their dishwasher wash the dishes.

If an autopiloted Tesla ever runs into me and I am injured, I will sue the living shit out of them, Tesla, and Musk. I hope the State and police officer in this case do the same.
The phony mythology around Tesla runs deep, and the "autopilot" feature is just an example of the larger cult mentality. I swear, if you posted on the Tesla forum that the cars sucked up all the farts let in them, and generated extra current by burning them, probably 90% of the forum members would say something "Oh yeah, I've know about that since 2017."
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      12-09-2019, 12:41 PM   #2581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
To me this is no different than car manufacturers commercials about AWD equipped vehicles etc. Subaru being the worst offender here. The amount times I've heard someone say "I'm fine, I have AWD."

I remember hearing this a lot back when I had my WRX. I had two sets of wheels for it, one with summer tires and the other with winter tires. Every time I would switch to the winter tires someone would always tell me, "why bother, you have AWD." That discussion always led into me explaining that AWD with summer tires in snowy conditions leads to four wheels spinning without traction, and all-season tires are not a good compromise.
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      12-09-2019, 12:43 PM   #2582
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I have a Subaru! I say "I'm fine, I have AWD!"

BUT

I know that AWD does not give you more traction going into the corners, but instead during recovery. 4 wheels with no traction is still no traction, under power or not.
A friend's sister found that out pretty quick with the first snow storm in her WRX. Car had under 100 miles on it and she bounced it off a guard rail. It doesn't help that Subaru puts the shittiest "all-seasons" on them.

Subaru does have the perfect business model though:

1. Market car as being safe, and the best vehicle ever in snow
2. Customers repeat marketing to others, they buy subarus
3. Make cars rust out after 3 winters so they have to buy new subarus.
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      12-09-2019, 12:53 PM   #2583
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Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
A friend's sister found that out pretty quick with the first snow storm in her WRX. Car had under 100 miles on it and she bounced it off a guard rail. It doesn't help that Subaru puts the shittiest "all-seasons" on them.

Subaru does have the perfect business model though:

1. Market car as being safe, and the best vehicle ever in snow
2. Customers repeat marketing to others, they buy subarus
3. Make cars rust out after 3 winters so they have to buy new subarus.
The only reason they crash as seldom as they do is that they're driven slower than anything else on the road. Any time I get a glimpse of one of those emblems on the back of a car in front of me I immediately start looking for a way to pass it, without even realizing I'm doing it. The GF and I were on the freeway the other day and came up alongside one that was actually speeding by 12 mph (which is why I was passing it, of course). I joked with her to call the cops, that thing is obviously stolen 'cause nobody who buys one ever drives it that fast. She totally got the joke. I think if you throw out the WRX, Subaru drivers have to be the biggest weenies on the road. Worse than Prius drivers, I think.
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      12-09-2019, 01:17 PM   #2584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I have a Subaru! I say "I'm fine, I have AWD!"

BUT

I know that AWD does not give you more traction going into the corners, but instead during recovery. 4 wheels with no traction is still no traction, under power or not.
I suspect your Subaru doesn't see the snow/ice as much as we do here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
A friend's sister found that out pretty quick with the first snow storm in her WRX. Car had under 100 miles on it and she bounced it off a guard rail. It doesn't help that Subaru puts the shittiest "all-seasons" on them.

Subaru does have the perfect business model though:

1. Market car as being safe, and the best vehicle ever in snow
2. Customers repeat marketing to others, they buy subarus
3. Make cars rust out after 3 winters so they have to buy new subarus.
^This, they don't help you stop any better nor do they help when you are going too fast for conditions. Plus, as pennsiveguy guy notes, people don't know how to drive and use the AWD to their advantage. They lose control, dynamite the brakes and go into the ditch/hit whatever else like any other car on the road. Same goes for assholes in 4X4 trucks. But, they do get away from stop signs/stoplights a bit quicker and don't get stuck as easy.

Add snow tires to AWD/4X4, now you are talking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
The only reason they crash as seldom as they do is that they're driven slower than anything else on the road. Any time I get a glimpse of one of those emblems on the back of a car in front of me I immediately start looking for a way to pass it, without even realizing I'm doing it. The GF and I were on the freeway the other day and came up alongside one that was actually speeding by 12 mph (which is why I was passing it, of course). I joked with her to call the cops, that thing is obviously stolen 'cause nobody who buys one ever drives it that fast. She totally got the joke. I think if you throw out the WRX, Subaru drivers have to be the biggest weenies on the road. Worse than Prius drivers, I think.
Also this.^ Another Subaru marketing gem, the owners think they are saving the world. Your cars not very efficient and driving 10 miles an hour slower isn't doing the earth any good. If anything driving off road through the woods you are doing more harm than other vehicles.

End my rant.
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      12-09-2019, 01:20 PM   #2585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I have a Subaru! I say "I'm fine, I have AWD!"

BUT

I know that AWD does not give you more traction going into the corners, but instead during recovery. 4 wheels with no traction is still no traction, under power or not.
A friend's sister found that out pretty quick with the first snow storm in her WRX. Car had under 100 miles on it and bounced off a guard rail. It doesn't help that Subaru puts the shittiest "all-seasons" on them.

Subaru does have the perfect business model though:

1. Market car as being safe, and the best vehicle ever in snow
2. Customers repeat marketing to others, they buy subarus
3. Make cars rust out after 3 winters so they have to buy new subarus.
The all seasons get a bad rep because they are cheap and meant to be primarily dry tires with some wet applications. They also take a nosedive towards the end of their life in the wet. They are okay in light snow and plowed roads so long as they have plenty of tread left but they are NOT snow tires. I've been up in the mountains with light snow and slush with lots of good grip. Class S chains are required in deep snow and icy conditions. The problem is people assume all season includes snow and ice.
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      12-09-2019, 01:24 PM   #2586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
No one sits in their kitchen and watches their dishwasher wash the dishes.
You need to get a younger dish washer
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      12-09-2019, 01:29 PM   #2587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
...
Your cars not very efficient and driving 10 miles an hour slower isn't doing the earth any good. If anything driving off road through the woods you are doing more harm than other vehicles.

End my rant.
And despite them saving 1/2 gallon of gas - maybe - by driving slow, I delight in burning a full gallon passing them. They ain't saving shit.
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      12-09-2019, 01:29 PM   #2588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTinline-six View Post
A friend's sister found that out pretty quick with the first snow storm in her WRX. Car had under 100 miles on it and she bounced it off a guard rail. It doesn't help that Subaru puts the shittiest "all-seasons" on them.

Subaru does have the perfect business model though:

1. Market car as being safe, and the best vehicle ever in snow
2. Customers repeat marketing to others, they buy subarus
3. Make cars rust out after 3 winters so they have to buy new subarus.
The only reason they crash as seldom as they do is that they're driven slower than anything else on the road. Any time I get a glimpse of one of those emblems on the back of a car in front of me I immediately start looking for a way to pass it, without even realizing I'm doing it. The GF and I were on the freeway the other day and came up alongside one that was actually speeding by 12 mph (which is why I was passing it, of course). I joked with her to call the cops, that thing is obviously stolen 'cause nobody who buys one ever drives it that fast. She totally got the joke. I think if you throw out the WRX, Subaru drivers have to be the biggest weenies on the road. Worse than Prius drivers, I think.
Unfortunately your observation is not inaccurate. Non-Wrx owners and drivers are older, more conservative drivers that just want something cheap and safe. Funny enough I get a the feeling a lot of drivers want to pass me in our family Forester just because it's a Forester. It's a gutless non-turbo engine with a CVT so I don't blame them, but I don't drive like a grandma in it. I absolutely hammer it on open roads and I am passing most Prius's. My wife is used to my fast and spirited driving so she has been accustomed to driving no less than 5-10 over the limit when she can.
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      12-09-2019, 01:44 PM   #2589
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The all seasons get a bad rep because they are cheap and meant to be primarily dry tires with some wet applications. They also take a nosedive towards the end of their life in the wet. They are okay in light snow and plowed roads so long as they have plenty of tread left but they are NOT snow tires. I've been up in the mountains with light snow and slush with lots of good grip. Class S chains are required in deep snow and icy conditions. The problem is people assume all season includes snow and ice.
I'm way OT here, but tire manufacturers have corrupted the "All Season" category name to the point where it's nearly meaningless. The category came about in the early radial tire era, when folks wanted something midway between a highway tire and a "snow tire" that had big lugs, was noisy as hell, and sucked everywhere except in snow. The early ones were fairly aggressive and pretty effective in snow and sand/light rocks. Nowadays, I think the design priorities are fuel economy and quiet, which are closely connected, and soft-surface performance has been sacrificed as a result. They meet the void ratio requirements for an all-season rating, but they're not effective on anything but a hard surface.
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      12-09-2019, 02:00 PM   #2590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The all seasons get a bad rep because they are cheap and meant to be primarily dry tires with some wet applications. They also take a nosedive towards the end of their life in the wet. They are okay in light snow and plowed roads so long as they have plenty of tread left but they are NOT snow tires. I've been up in the mountains with light snow and slush with lots of good grip. Class S chains are required in deep snow and icy conditions. The problem is people assume all season includes snow and ice.
There are some decent A/S tires out there. But, even the best ones can't come close to snow tires. Especially with the weather we are having in MN today. It is packed snow and ice now on the roads and even the best A/S can't cope with it. Everyone spins at stop signs/lights to get going creating an ice patch that A/S won't stop on that snows will. I'm honestly surprised that either states like mine don't make snows mandatory or that insurance companies give people a premium break that have them. They really do work soooo much better and would reduce a lot of accidents/save both the state and insurance companies time/money.
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      12-09-2019, 02:24 PM   #2591
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
There are some decent A/S tires out there. But, even the best ones can't come close to snow tires. Especially with the weather we are having in MN today. It is packed snow and ice now on the roads and even the best A/S can't cope with it. Everyone spins at stop signs/lights to get going creating an ice patch that A/S won't stop on that snows will. I'm honestly surprised that either states like mine don't make snows mandatory or that insurance companies give people a premium break that have them. They really do work soooo much better and would reduce a lot of accidents/save both the state and insurance companies time/money.
Had a blast on the way to work this morning. I actually waited until it had built up some. It was right around the freezing point, so I knew it'd be slimy and slippery. Drifted through several roundabouts and had fun holeshotting everyone when the lights turned green. Even did a couple of donuts in the client's parking lot, to mark my territory. Nokian Hakkapeliittas, rear-biased performance-oriented AWD and 650 HP make for a fun drive if you're willing and able to steer with your right foot...and I am. As Mel Brooks said, "It's good to be the King."
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      12-09-2019, 02:26 PM   #2592
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
There are some decent A/S tires out there. But, even the best ones can't come close to snow tires. Especially with the weather we are having in MN today. It is packed snow and ice now on the roads and even the best A/S can't cope with it. Everyone spins at stop signs/lights to get going creating an ice patch that A/S won't stop on that snows will. I'm honestly surprised that either states like mine don't make snows mandatory or that insurance companies give people a premium break that have them. They really do work soooo much better and would reduce a lot of accidents/save both the state and insurance companies time/money.
Winter tires are mandatory in Finland, as are annual inspections for the whole vehicle. Purely by coincidence, it's where Nokian tires is headquartered. No connection at all.
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      12-09-2019, 03:16 PM   #2593
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Tesla is level 2, user should be aware and act as such...
Tesla calls it autopilot. 99% of people believe airplanes fly themselves. Airplanes to not fly themselves, pilots watch the airplane fly under automated control. Taking the same approach, trying to explain to Tesla buyers that they must watch the car drive under automated control would not sell very many Teslas. People equate Tesla's autopilot to their automatic dishwashing machine. No one sits in their kitchen and watches their dishwasher wash the dishes.

If an autopiloted Tesla ever runs into me and I am injured, I will sue the living shit out of them, Tesla, and Musk. I hope the State and police officer in this case do the same.
Sticking a ton of disclaimer shall do..., didn't some manufacture get sued for cruise control when it first came out (some guy though it's car drive itself so he went to make coffee in the back of his RV, this got to be 60s/70s)
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      12-09-2019, 03:34 PM   #2594
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(some guy though it's car drive itself so he went to make coffee in the back of his RV, this got to be 60s/70s)
I've been hearing that joke from my dad since the early 70's
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      12-09-2019, 03:41 PM   #2595
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
(some guy though it's car drive itself so he went to make coffee in the back of his RV, this got to be 60s/70s)
I've been hearing that joke from my dad since the early 70's
Idiocy is timeless..
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      12-09-2019, 03:44 PM   #2596
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Idiocy is timeless..
And the sooner these here #whippersnappers get off my lawn, the sooner we can all just get along


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