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      03-18-2019, 02:27 PM   #1453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The demand is there, but the cost is high, like oil, like agriculture, like health care. Business motive is profit, so they have to make profit to be sustainable. Demand is limited by supply and cost. Subsidies don't create demand, they create accessibility by lowering cost.
Demand is NOT there though. Telsa barely moved any cars last month and they are going to fail again this month.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I've already described a possible solution.

Problem:
Gasoline is a pollutant
Solution:
Develop a system that can use clean energy like solar, hydro and wind.
Problem - mining and refining ore causes pollution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Problem:
Gasoline is finite
Solution:
Source energy from a renewable abundant sources like solar, hydro and wind.
Problem: materials used to make batteries is finite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The EV kills those two birds with one stone. Of course there are trade-offs, but so far this is the best solution right now. If you have another one, I'm all ears.
No, BATTERY powered Ev's don't solve this problem - they move the goalpost.
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      03-18-2019, 02:33 PM   #1454
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Originally Posted by BzsBimmer View Post
More EVís = More gas for my Mís
This guys knows whats up. I'm more than happy to admit my support of the EV is completely selfish. More EV's mean that oil will have to compete with it and hopefully gas prices will lower. My M car is thirsty!

I also would like my kids to not inherit a shitpile of problems. If the EV is a solution, here's the flawed foundation of it, please continue the work to overcome its obstacles.

With regards to Tesla, I'll parrot like an idiot until it sinks in, Tesla is good for the automotive industry because it creates competition and innovation from competitors. I have no wish for them to fail because there is more to be benefitted from them succeeding even after I have sold all my shares.
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      03-18-2019, 02:33 PM   #1455
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Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Who knows.
no one really but i have to imagine if given the opportunity at that point in time we would see far better products today than what we have now. look how quickly every other form of tech has evolved and advanced yet we're still working on retooling a hundred year old piece of tech to squeeze out every possible inch or foot per gallon instead of using resources to find ways to replace this tech. i am not a fan of tesla, musk or two combined. i may not agree with a politician doesnt mean i am against their entire party. i may not like certain items on a menu doesnt mean i hate the restaurant and it's owner. i am not against ev or hybrids (except for the fact that they are pitched as green or eco-friendly) but i am partial to purchasing an ev or hybrid from audi bmw mb, or volvo over tesla.
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      03-18-2019, 02:38 PM   #1456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Demand is NOT there though. Telsa barely moved any cars last month and they are going to fail again this month.
Tesla had to make way for Chevy, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc etc etc... Demand is there. I drive around and I see EVs everywhere.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Problem - mining and refining ore causes pollution.


Problem: materials used to make batteries is finite.
But it's reusable. Gasoline is burned than done. It's one use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
No, BATTERY powered Ev's don't solve this problem - they move the goalpost.
Can you explain? Whats the goalpost? How far or how wide to score? What are we scoring?
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      03-18-2019, 03:05 PM   #1457
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You are aware that GM, Toyota and Honda had EV/Hybrid on the road before Tesla even existed; right? The only thing Tesla did was somehow equate their vehicles with wealth and "cool" versus frugal owners and environmentally conscious individuals.
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      03-18-2019, 03:12 PM   #1458
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Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
maybe it will maybe it won't.

Stop comparing problems that exist in reality with hypothetical solutions.


I drove one, and it was a shit car. and people buy shitty things all the time, just for the record.
I'm not comparing anything. Do you think the EV evolved the last 15-20 years? We've gone from this:

To this:


Solutions and advances in tech aren't hypothetical, they're a given.
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      03-18-2019, 03:16 PM   #1459
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
You are aware that GM, Toyota and Honda had EV/Hybrid on the road before Tesla even existed; right? The only thing Tesla did was somehow equate their vehicles with wealth and "cool" versus frugal owners and environmentally conscious individuals.
No one cares who was first. The trick is to succeed with a product, and both build and market it in a way that people actually buys it.
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      03-18-2019, 03:20 PM   #1460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
I'm not comparing anything. Do you think the EV evolved the last 15-20 years?
i think the model-s looks like what a sedan version of the mercury cougar would look like today:





the model-x looks like a honda crosstour with gullwing doors.





the original tesla was simply a retooled lotus which is where or why some of the allure began but once they took on their own styling they havent produced anything "S3XY".
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      03-18-2019, 03:29 PM   #1461
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
i think the model-s looks like what a sedan version of the mercury cougar would look like today
What you think of the design of the Tesla has nothing to do with anything.
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      03-18-2019, 03:30 PM   #1462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
I agree that you're an Elon fanboy who just can't understand that he's not some great messiah that you're painting him out to be.
Well, yeah, in the interest of full disclosure I did buy a bunch of their shares at $29.
Quote:
SpaceX's financials aren't public. You can say I'm wrong, but this is fact.
Still plenty of information to educate yourself, between WSJ leak and recent investment rounds.
Quote:
Tesla has not had a profitable year ever.
But the latest two quarters were.
Quote:
They bought a fleet of trucks with stocks.
Lots of other companies do that when they feel it makes sense.
Quote:
They are broke.
So broke they've just repaid a $920M bond.
Quote:
Elon is NOT an engineer - period.
Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2.
Quote:
He did NOT develop pay pal, despite your claims.
Despite what I never claimed.
Quote:
I can't wait until Tesla fails though - I'm tired of seeing the rabid Tesla fanbase on here and every other site. You're not car people, and I don't give damn what you think.
Oh man... I've had at least one BMW in the driveway since 2002. We picked up two of them at BMW Welt. Everyone in our family autocrosses (my girls share a kart, and my wife is a Solo National champion). Finally, try and figure out why my ratio of rep to posts here is better than 1:1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
You are aware that GM, Toyota and Honda had EV/Hybrid on the road before Tesla even existed; right? The only thing Tesla did was somehow equate their vehicles with wealth and "cool" versus frugal owners and environmentally conscious individuals.
Well, it worked, didn't it?
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      03-18-2019, 06:00 PM   #1463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Well, yeah, in the interest of full disclosure I did buy a bunch of their shares at $29.
You should sell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Still plenty of information to educate yourself, between WSJ leak and recent investment rounds.
Like the companies financials? Please, post them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
But the latest two quarters were.
Barely - and that includes laying of significant portions of the workforce and asking people to volunteer to do work of their previously employed coworkers. LOL, what a fucking joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Lots of other companies do that when they feel it makes sense.
Like when your broke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
So broke they've just repaid a $920M bond.
So broke it's not going to make a profit this quarter, and needed to lay off a sizeable portion of their staff to sell a 35k piece of shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2.
Despite what I never claimed.
Yeah, he was an investor - I can't find anything that says he was a programmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Oh man... I've had at least one BMW in the driveway since 2002. We picked up two of them at BMW Welt. Everyone in our family autocrosses (my girls share a kart, and my wife is a Solo National champion). Finally, try and figure out why my ratio of rep to posts here is better than 1:1.

Well, it worked, didn't it?
From your post, I gather you say a lot of nonsense, have a vested interest in Tesla, are oblivious to reality and think your internet Kudos have some meaning. I'm still trying to find ANYTHING that I can agree with you on.
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      03-18-2019, 06:02 PM   #1464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
no one really but i have to imagine if given the opportunity at that point in time we would see far better products today than what we have now.
I don't care, I live in reality. I'm not going to debate your on hypothetical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
look how quickly every other form of tech has evolved and advanced yet we're still working on retooling a hundred year old piece of tech to squeeze out every possible inch or foot per gallon instead of using resources to find ways to replace this tech. i am not a fan of tesla, musk or two combined. i may not agree with a politician doesnt mean i am against their entire party. i may not like certain items on a menu doesnt mean i hate the restaurant and it's owner. i am not against ev or hybrids (except for the fact that they are pitched as green or eco-friendly) but i am partial to purchasing an ev or hybrid from audi bmw mb, or volvo over tesla.
I could care less of the brand as long as it's good.
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      03-18-2019, 06:04 PM   #1465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Tesla had to make way for Chevy, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc etc etc... Demand is there. I drive around and I see EVs everywhere.
LOL, it's not. EVs demand is low, and artificially inflated by marketing and tax incentives.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
But it's reusable. Gasoline is burned than done. It's one use.
Show me how reusable a battery is - and how much resources does it take to recycle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Can you explain? Whats the goalpost? How far or how wide to score? What are we scoring?
Are battery powered cars better for the environment? I'm speaking of RIGHT NOW.
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      03-18-2019, 06:18 PM   #1466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Show me how reusable a battery is - and how much resources does it take to recycle.
+1

Lithium batteries are terrible for the environment. The majority of it is not recyclable and they get buried in the ground somewhere when done. Small batteries in cell phones and computers is not a big deal, but the huge batteries in cars are.

Battery technology has to catch up in order for BEV cars to be viable for mass use.
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      03-18-2019, 06:39 PM   #1467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
What you think of the design of the Tesla has nothing to do with anything.
i am a consumer and an auto enthusiast. that makes me a potential customer. what i and others like me think about the product has everything to do with everything. especially when i am replying to a post asking about the vehicle's design and looks how much it evolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
I could care less of the brand as long as it's good.
i am confused. does the statement above mean you actually care or did you mean you could not care less?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Well, it worked, didn't it?
nope; because tesla failing and demand is dwindling. their popularity is among people who cannot afford or non-enthusiasts at this point when it was quite the opposite when they debuted.
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      03-18-2019, 07:01 PM   #1468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Tesla had to make way for Chevy, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc etc etc... Demand is there. I drive around and I see EVs everywhere.
LOL, it's not. EVs demand is low, and artificially inflated by marketing and tax incentives.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
But it's reusable. Gasoline is burned than done. It's one use.
Show me how reusable a battery is - and how much resources does it take to recycle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Can you explain? Whats the goalpost? How far or how wide to score? What are we scoring?
Are battery powered cars better for the environment? I'm speaking of RIGHT NOW.
It doesn't matter if the cars are selling. Again, that's how subsidies work, which, again, is used in oil, agriculture, and health care. Imagine if oil subsidies disappeared, which is in the BILLIONS by the way, and the price of gas skyrocketed. How will that effect demand? The same way price effects demand for an EV. Price fluctuations either make it more or less accessible, which is tied into demand. The consumer will demand the cheaper option so long as it meets their wants and needs. Attaching marketing and subsidies to demand doesn't really make a strong case for whether or not it's "real". Real is what happens, not how it's generated. I'd argue that most things have an artificial demand except the basic necessities of life. How is this less valid than artificial supply to control the price per barrel of oil? What you are labeling artificial demand is merely the mechanisms of capitalism doing what it's supposed to do to stimulate the economy.

I reuse my battery everyday when I recharge it at home then drive to work in the morning. When I fill up my M3, I burn the gas and I have to get more gas. I don't have to get a new battery every single time I use it up. I just RECHARGE it.

Yes, it's better for the environment right now as I walk across the street because there is less air pollution. Additionally, it is NOT just the environment at stake. Oil supplies are FINITE. It will be gone. Bye bye. What do we use in its place? The EV is a nice start because it can be reused and takes renewable energy. Even if it was just as or slightly more harmful to the environment, at least we can use it after we run out of oil and given enough research and development, it can be much much better for the environment. And what is the alternative? Do nothing and sit on our hands until we run out of oil? Then what?
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      03-18-2019, 07:36 PM   #1469
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As a reminder, all energy on this planet originates from the H+H fusion in the Sun. Gas is just a terribly circuitous way to use it.
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      03-18-2019, 08:29 PM   #1470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post

I reuse my battery everyday when I recharge it at home then drive to work in the morning. When I fill up my M3, I burn the gas and I have to get more gas. I don't have to get a new battery every single time I use it up. I just RECHARGE it.
There is an electric station somewhere that uses oil to generate the electricity to charge up your car.
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      03-18-2019, 08:50 PM   #1471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Well, yeah, in the interest of full disclosure I did buy a bunch of their shares at $29.
You should sell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Still plenty of information to educate yourself, between WSJ leak and recent investment rounds.
Like the companies financials? Please, post them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
But the latest two quarters were.
Barely - and that includes laying of significant portions of the workforce and asking people to volunteer to do work of their previously employed coworkers. LOL, what a fucking joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Lots of other companies do that when they feel it makes sense.
Like when your broke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
So broke they've just repaid a $920M bond.
So broke it's not going to make a profit this quarter, and needed to lay off a sizeable portion of their staff to sell a 35k piece of shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2 Zip2.
Despite what I never claimed.
Yeah, he was an investor - I can't find anything that says he was a programmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Oh man... I've had at least one BMW in the driveway since 2002. We picked up two of them at BMW Welt. Everyone in our family autocrosses (my girls share a kart, and my wife is a Solo National champion). Finally, try and figure out why my ratio of rep to posts here is better than 1:1.

Well, it worked, didn't it?
From your post, I gather you say a lot of nonsense, have a vested interest in Tesla, are oblivious to reality and think your internet Kudos have some meaning. I'm still trying to find ANYTHING that I can agree with you on.
Right on brother!!! Keep telling exactly like it is
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      03-19-2019, 10:43 AM   #1472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
It doesn't matter if the cars are selling. Again, that's how subsidies work, which, again, is used in oil, agriculture, and health care. Imagine if oil subsidies disappeared, which is in the BILLIONS by the way, and the price of gas skyrocketed. How will that effect demand?
I'm not opposed to this, but everything would potentially increase in price, even in home electricity. But who cares - there isn't a real demand for electric cars without throwing 7,500 in federal money at it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The same way price effects demand for an EV. Price fluctuations either make it more or less accessible, which is tied into demand. The consumer will demand the cheaper option so long as it meets their wants and needs. Attaching marketing and subsidies to demand doesn't really make a strong case for whether or not it's "real". Real is what happens, not how it's generated.
And REAL demand for these products doesn't exist. The sales of electric cars are a fraction of new car sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I'd argue that most things have an artificial demand except the basic necessities of life. How is this less valid than artificial supply to control the price per barrel of oil? What you are labeling artificial demand is merely the mechanisms of capitalism doing what it's supposed to do to stimulate the economy.

I reuse my battery everyday when I recharge it at home then drive to work in the morning. When I fill up my M3, I burn the gas and I have to get more gas. I don't have to get a new battery every single time I use it up. I just RECHARGE it.
No one is arguing that you do - but there are costs to refining the materials used in batteries, and to recycle them at the end of their lifespan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Yes, it's better for the environment right now as I walk across the street because there is less air pollution. Additionally, it is NOT just the environment at stake. Oil supplies are FINITE. It will be gone. Bye bye. What do we use in its place? The EV is a nice start because it can be reused and takes renewable energy. Even if it was just as or slightly more harmful to the environment, at least we can use it after we run out of oil and given enough research and development, it can be much much better for the environment. And what is the alternative? Do nothing and sit on our hands until we run out of oil? Then what?
I'm an environmentalist myself, and I agree with the idea of clean air and water - corporate profits be damned. I don't agree with Battery Electric vehicles as the avenue to get there.
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      03-19-2019, 11:09 AM   #1473
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Child labor in current use to mine for cobalt, the raw material needed in the manufacturing of EV car lithium batteries. Very disturbing ethical and social implications...

Cobalt also a finite resource. The irony...

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...-child-labour/


https://europe.autonews.com/article/...r-ev-batteries
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      03-19-2019, 12:23 PM   #1474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
there isn't a real demand for electric cars without throwing 7,500 in federal money at it.
And REAL demand for these products doesn't exist.

The sales of electric cars are a fraction of new car sales.
It doesn't matter if it's stimulated by subsidies or materializes out of thin air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
No one is arguing that you do - but there are costs to refining the materials used in batteries, and to recycle them at the end of their lifespan.
I was directly countering your point. What I do is what every single EV driver does. Two things you cannot do with oil that you CAN do with batteries is use them over and over and recycle them. The materials in batteries are MINED ONCE, REFINED ONCE, then USED MULTIPLE TIMES. Oil is MINED ONCE, REFINED ONCE, and USED ONCE. Thus, batteries are more efficient in that regard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
I'm an environmentalist myself, and I agree with the idea of clean air and water - corporate profits be damned. I don't agree with Battery Electric vehicles as the avenue to get there.
What do you think that avenue is?
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