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      07-05-2018, 09:34 PM   #111
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No one here seems to take in to consideration that we have a huge trade deficit. Economics 101 would most certainly suggest that it is unsustainable long term, and a big reason the US has been in a financial mess for a very long time. Clearly, reversing this does not happen overnight and it will certainly hurt a lot of people and businesses short term. However, if we don't address the trade deficit, we will have much bigger problems long term. Previous presidents have just kicked the can down the road because it isn't popular to fix these sort of things, but it is necessary for our long term success.

Besides, don't these other countries (China, Germany ect.) have a lot to loose by imposing tariffs? If we are the #1 consumer of their products, they will certainly loose business and drive us to buy Made in America again, which would be a win win.
I call BS. Our economy has never been better. We just passed a huge tax break because we have so much money. How can we claim we need more money when we just gave a tax break?
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      07-05-2018, 09:39 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
No one here seems to take in to consideration that we have a huge trade deficit. Economics 101 would most certainly suggest that it is unsustainable long term, and a big reason the US has been in a financial mess for a very long time. Clearly, reversing this does not happen overnight and it will certainly hurt a lot of people and businesses short term. However, if we don't address the trade deficit, we will have much bigger problems long term. Previous presidents have just kicked the can down the road because it isn't popular to fix these sort of things, but it is necessary for our long term success.

Besides, don't these other countries (China, Germany ect.) have a lot to loose by imposing tariffs? If we are the #1 consumer of their products, they will certainly loose business and drive us to buy Made in America again, which would be a win win.
I call BS. Our economy has never been better. We just passed a huge tax break because we have so much money. How can we claim we need more money when we just gave a tax break?
You don't have to have excess liquidity to pass a tax break. You just need 535 stupid people.
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      07-05-2018, 10:33 PM   #113
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Harley has larger issues other than tariffs. Namely US demographics.
nice sidestep of my query..

At what point does this tariff scenario help the average American?
No I'm serious. Their market is changing (Baby boomers were big buyers but because of their age they're not riding) so relocating some production to overseas was likely to occur regardless. That's where demand is. Perhaps the tariffs brought to time frame forward but don't for a second believe it wasn't going to happen eventually.
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      07-05-2018, 10:35 PM   #114
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People over here and out in social crap media love to spew stuff out of their mouth. As if they know what it takes to be a president. They know how to negotiate. They know what it takes TO BRING JOBS BACK to The US. They know how to run a business. If you donít have better stuff to say then donít say it!
Let me enlighten some people, if you donít know how to play the game of chess, then you donít know what it takes to stand up to your oppononent and have a better advantageous position in the world of commerce.
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      07-05-2018, 11:34 PM   #115
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      07-05-2018, 11:38 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by ZHP076 View Post
You have got to be kidding, Trump could not beat a 6 year old at CHECKERS without cheating
How can anyone call serial bankruptcies a successful business model?
He was a terrible business executive, but a very capable huckster and con. His only successful career was as the host of a second rate "reality" television series.
And ask the man who wrote Tump's book, Trump did not write a single word of it, just more of his lies and obfuscation of anything resembling the truth.
And otherwise intelligent people believe it.........why?............I think I know why.............I am just waiting for someone to admit it.
Rant over
Your viewpoints are ludicrous.

Take a trip to Manhattan - the Trump name is on almost EVERY high end Residential Condo Building, Hotel and Golf Course. This goes on thoroughout the major US cities and prime locations around the world. He also played an ENORMOUS part in rebuilding the Grand Central Station and Central Park.
The bankruptcies were based on casinos in Atlantic city. The guy has BIG balls and sometimes things dont work out. The guys that ran the casino for him died in place crash and then things went bad. Any great businessman has had a bunch of ideas/businesses that fail!

The Democrats LOVED this guy from the 80s until 2016. Give the guy some credit........
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      07-06-2018, 12:56 AM   #117
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Your viewpoints are ludicrous.

Take a trip to Manhattan - the Trump name is on almost EVERY high end Residential Condo Building, Hotel and Golf Course. This goes on thoroughout the major US cities and prime locations around the world. He also played an ENORMOUS part in rebuilding the Grand Central Station and Central Park.
The bankruptcies were based on casinos in Atlantic city. The guy has BIG balls and sometimes things dont work out. The guys that ran the casino for him died in place crash and then things went bad. Any great businessman has had a bunch of ideas/businesses that fail!

The Democrats LOVED this guy from the 80s until 2016. Give the guy some credit........
Trump has been known in the area as a con-man and a punchline for the last 25 years at least.

I know I'm not going to convince any kool-aid drinkers, but this guy is a straight up buffoon. It is frightening how little critical thinking ability some of you have. I'm not even a democrat so save your partisan bs.

Manufacturing IS coming back to the US, but it's gonna be done by robots. Yes, let us "bring back" menial jobs that are going the way of the dinosaur to an economy with "record low unemployment".

I am continually surprised at just how dumb and gullible some people are.
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      07-06-2018, 12:59 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
We are not the lowest cost producer/highest quality producer. What we are good at is designing the machines and processes used in production, marketing, sales, product innovation...get it? Read: it's more efficient for us to be engineers, creative sales/marketing, creating intellectual property.

If you look at productivity metrics we are one of the most productive labor force in the world meaning for every hour that we spend at work we produce more value of goods and services than those labor intensive economies such as China Vietnam Etc.

You should view the fact that we are not labor intensive as a position of strength not weakness.
Exactly!

I am sure Americans are so desperate to assemble Apple products 18 hours a day like they do at Foxconn. Don't forget the suicide netting! I'm sure China will love the widespread unemployment that will occur when they replace all the unskilled labor with some fancy machines that work all night and don't throw themselves off buildings.

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      07-06-2018, 01:10 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
true story...

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...davidson2018-7


profits drop... jobs are lost.. stocks drop.... so... everyone from wall street to main street get caught in the crossfire.

At what point does this scenario help the average American?
But but... we're gonna bring back Detroit!

Oh wait, too little too late. Guess I'm gonna have to buy a new car before a Civic costs $50k thanks to a misguided trade war.
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      07-06-2018, 03:07 AM   #120
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It's quite interesting to read all these comments here - honestly.

I've lived in a number of places worldwide, I work in an industry directly connected to international trade. I get the feeling, that a lot of us (including a lot of Europeans) should take a "reality" pill and look, what future markets are currently emerging.

East Africa is more or less controlled by Chinese, southeastern European countries are heavily influenced by China, some Arabic countries are strengthening their ties with China and Russia. Russia is gaining more and more independence.

Long story short: I believe the US and Europe are taking themselves to serious. Given the current numbers we may be leading in trade, but we won't be leading for too much longer. Whoever is able to adapt and create new relations quickest will secure trade opportunities. I'm not seeing the current US foreign policies help with that...

As to some of the comments here:

- US built cars might be an option here in a niche (Mustang) or if we get cars like US built Honda's/Toyotas; However, Hyundai&KIA are pushing heavily - a tough competition. However, at the moment Toyota does not offer a Corolla (and they are planning to stick to the MidSize Auris Hybrid for the time being);
- Trump may call it negotiation, and this may be the way stockbrokers, real estate firms and others negotiate, but I don't think it is well received at the other side of the table; a long-lasting and fruitful negotiation looks different imho, this currently is more resembling of casino gambling and showing off
- VAT and tariffs are often considered as one "number", while it is a different concept; have heard this way too often in the discussions; European VAT rules are sure different than the US;
- US is comparatively cheap for living; Buy a car in Singapore, buy some organic veggies in France or Spain, buy some meat in Scandinavia; Electronics, tools, household items are extremely inexpensive in the US (... why would I buy wrenches in the US and bring them to Germany :P ...)
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      07-06-2018, 04:00 AM   #121
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I think that's shortsighted thinking.

This "tariff war" is another example of the "Art of The Deal".

Politics is a like a game of poker & a game of chess played on a massive scale.

In that regard, he is no different than any other politician.

Despite the constant banter of "he's an idiot", he sure does seem to be effective.

But that's just my opinion.
Effective at what exactly?

Most of what he has done is reverse exec orders that Obama put in place. I don't agree with everything Obama did, but he is reversing everything just to spite him.

aka reversing Dodd-Frank for example. Who is in their right mind would kill that?

My blood boils with the current political BS going on.
Do you realize Dodd-Frank put your retirement accounts in control by the labor department, they would have oversight over what your investment company would be allowed to do with your investment. One requirement is that your account had to be fee amount, you were not allowed to pay based on performance i.e. Commissions. Personally do not pay fee why pay the broker or financial company when the market is going down, went in the hell would I want them making money when I'm losing money.

Lastly, who thinks anyone in the labor department has any clue about investments. Dodd-Frank was mostly bad with few good things, this was another example you think you have problem know wait till you see the solution the government comes up with.

BTW, IRA deal was the last administration soltion to put regulations on the financial markets in exchange they force everyone to pay those companies fees, guaranty income for the financial companies.
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      07-06-2018, 04:34 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
No one here seems to take in to consideration that we have a huge trade deficit. Economics 101 would most certainly suggest that it is unsustainable long term, and a big reason the US has been in a financial mess for a very long time. Clearly, reversing this does not happen overnight and it will certainly hurt a lot of people and businesses short term. However, if we don't address the trade deficit, we will have much bigger problems long term. Previous presidents have just kicked the can down the road because it isn't popular to fix these sort of things, but it is necessary for our long term success.

Besides, don't these other countries (China, Germany ect.) have a lot to loose by imposing tariffs? If we are the #1 consumer of their products, they will certainly loose business and drive us to buy Made in America again, which would be a win win.
Deficits have been actually decreasing under Obama.

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Take a look at why we have deficits and you should see that part of the problem is the over active consumption of cheap manufactured goods by US consumers. Having lived in Asia, I can tell you people don't go through TV's, cars, phones, laptops, etc like they do here. People spend money on furniture they keep for a lifetime.

If we want to reduce the deficit, we should be promoting our competitive advantages namely our farm products, tourism, and reduce our consumption of cheap goods.

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      07-06-2018, 04:38 AM   #123
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Folks before getting all Techincal here, simple put the EU does everything they can to protect their industries from outside competition, the US does as well just just not to The same level. The main thing, in the EU the government pays for everything, they have more social programs and they need to keep people working to pay for them as well as tax the hell out everything. There is no free trade if there was then only the countries and companies who were most competitive will survive in most cases that would be the US, because we have most resources, thus the reason the EU does everything it can to slow US dominance in market.

In US it's survival of the fittest, there are few guarantees and we kill industries in the name of free trade and we got screwed by the idiot lawyers running this county. If other countries want to do business in the US their rules have to be the same as US, otherwise, our rules should mirror their. I was glad to hear Trump say that since I have been saying that for long time.

I'll give you one example, if you work for global company who has operations in the EU and the US, and the economy goes bad and companies need to downsize, the US is the first place they let people go, why, it cost less, letting people go in the EU is very costly, you have to give people 1 yrs notice and all kind of things to support them. In the US your out the door tomorrow with their last pay check. This is just another example of not being fair and equal. I personally worked for multiply global companies during down turns and watch them get rid of US workers faster than EU counters parts. If there were two people who could do the same job one in the EU and one in the US the US persin will be gone first. Why the US makes it easy to get rid of people and EU makes it hard.

This problem is more complicated than just Tariffs.
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      07-06-2018, 05:58 AM   #124
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hoping for trump to bully our country's politicians to remove the 90% import taxes on american cars
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      07-06-2018, 06:29 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
Deficits have been actually decreasing under Obama.

Attachment 1856097

Take a look at why we have deficits and you should see that part of the problem is the over active consumption of cheap manufactured goods by US consumers. Having lived in Asia, I can tell you people don't go through TV's, cars, phones, laptops, etc like they do here. People spend money on furniture they keep for a lifetime.

If we want to reduce the deficit, we should be promoting our competitive advantages namely our farm products, tourism, and reduce our consumption of cheap goods.


Attachment 1856098
This, +1!
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      07-06-2018, 08:32 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
Deficits have been actually decreasing under Obama.

Attachment 1856097

Take a look at why we have deficits and you should see that part of the problem is the over active consumption of cheap manufactured goods by US consumers. Having lived in Asia, I can tell you people don't go through TV's, cars, phones, laptops, etc like they do here. People spend money on furniture they keep for a lifetime.

If we want to reduce the deficit, we should be promoting our competitive advantages namely our farm products, tourism, and reduce our consumption of cheap goods.

Attachment 1856098
It's almost as if people don't realize that the US has transitioned into a service economy and has survived operating as the consumer rather than the producer. Maybe, just maybe, we operate at deficits above because those products can be produced at a more consumer-friendly rate elsewhere.

Ironically, these tariffs do nothing but disrupt the manufacturing that you do have ie the auto industry and its associated industries. Those coal and basic product manufacturing jobs aren't coming back. Better off promoting the manufacturing that you're actually good at.
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      07-06-2018, 10:22 AM   #127
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So less "Made in the USA" than the Benz.
No one is talking about Mercedes here but you. If I buy a GT350 over a M2, which is what I suggested, then that is certainly a lot more Made in US.

Either way, yes it would suck to have to pay more for the cars we want, but the point of tariffs is to collect a tax on foreign goods. Would I like to pay 10-20% more for a BMW or a Porsche? No of course not. But we do pay a lot less than Europeans do for them, so it's not really like it would be all that unfair.
Democrats love to talk about taxing the rich. Well there you go, what is wrong with taxing German luxury cars? Isn't that taxing the rich? Of course in turn we then need to lower other taxes to help growth and productivity in our own country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Trump has been known in the area as a con-man and a punchline for the last 25 years at least.

I know I'm not going to convince any kool-aid drinkers, but this guy is a straight up buffoon. It is frightening how little critical thinking ability some of you have. I'm not even a democrat so save your partisan bs.

Manufacturing IS coming back to the US, but it's gonna be done by robots. Yes, let us "bring back" menial jobs that are going the way of the dinosaur to an economy with "record low unemployment".

I am continually surprised at just how dumb and gullible some people are.
I started a machine shop back in 2006, and we had 10 years of slow growth and that was considered doing well. Nobody in our industry had confidence to grow, because our government does everything to make things difficult and costly, so orders get sent over to China, where it's much cheaper to make. You just can't compete when you have to pay for healthcare, workman's comp, environmental fees and the highest corporate taxes in the world. So Trump came in and started cutting red tape and even though it has not eliminated a lot of these costs, it has cut them a bit and more importantly brought the confidence in the future back. Since he got elected, manufacturing is soaring, just like the stock market has. Manufacturing has not been this good in the US since the mid 90's. Two years ago we ordered a new HAAS CNC (made in USA) and it was in our shop up and running within 3 weeks. A few months ago we needed another machine and the same machine was 19 weeks out. Manufacturing is coming back in a big way. We implemented a whole other shift and sales are up 50%........the proof is in the pudding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
Deficits have been actually decreasing under Obama.

Attachment 1856097
That chart is very misleading. Yes, the trade deficit has gone down (a bit), but look at the amounts on the left. Even the bottom of the chart is still $600 Billion/year. So we reduced it some, but it is certainly still a HUGE problem. And BTW, it was hardly Obama's doing. Most of the decline seems to have happened before he took office and a lot of it was probably due to the recession, as we stopped buying as much during that time.

Last edited by norMcal; 07-06-2018 at 10:29 AM..
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      07-06-2018, 02:15 PM   #128
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The problem is, our Ignoramus-in-Chief (IIC) doesn't understand that most American vehicles are not safety and crash certified in Europe anyway, so what does this accomplish? Why would car manufacturers on both sides of the Atlantic make major changes to certify and sell American vehicles in Europe, when in a few years, when IIC is out of office, and policies go back to 'normal', there will be no market for gigantic Ford F150s and Dodge Rams in Europe. So, rather than bend to IIC's tariff imposition, they will just wait it out.

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      07-06-2018, 02:41 PM   #129
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I agree, but I think you don't only mean those affected in the USA right?

There are many people in other countries that blame us for the loss of their industries.

Farmers in a lot of smaller countries cannot compete with the massive scale of cheap fruits, nuts, soybeans, pork, chicken, beef, etc. from the US.
It's not only the USA that does this to other countries. Europe does it as well. For example, I've been to Ghana, and in the markets, the vendors are selling chickens from Europe, rather than chickens raised in the Ghanaian countrysides, because the Europeans sell the chickens so cheaply, it's cheaper for the vendors to sell European chickens in Accra than Ghanaian chickens. So the chicken farmers in Ghana end up impoverished.

I'm sure there are many examples around the world. Look at all the infrastructure China is building in Africa...using imported Chinese labor. Poor Africans remain poor and watch while the Chinese benefit from the present construction and future 'debt' owed by those countries.
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      07-06-2018, 02:50 PM   #130
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No one is talking about Mercedes here but you. If I buy a GT350 over a M2, which is what I suggested, then that is certainly a lot more Made in US.

Either way, yes it would suck to have to pay more for the cars we want, but the point of tariffs is to collect a tax on foreign goods. Would I like to pay 10-20% more for a BMW or a Porsche? No of course not. But we do pay a lot less than Europeans do for them, so it's not really like it would be all that unfair.
Democrats love to talk about taxing the rich. Well there you go, what is wrong with taxing German luxury cars? Isn't that taxing the rich? Of course in turn we then need to lower other taxes to help growth and productivity in our own country.
You obviously don't get how this works. The EU is not going to cave.

What will cave is the American automotive industry. Layoffs at dealerships, suppliers, factories, etc. that help support the manufacturers would have a very negative outcome on jobs, economic outlook, and the stock market.

This is the entire point of globalization and the economic system built in the 50's and on. It prevents countries from single handedly working to dismantle the world economy as everyone is linked together and has to cooperate.

Does the US have a trade deficit disadvantage? Yes.

Is it crippling the US economy? Far from it.

Should it be corrected? Sure.

Corrected by heavy handed and arbitrary tariffs that do nothing but provoke confusion and diplomatic uproar? No.

The American auto industry is not being held back by tariffs on our products flowing to Europe. To suggest otherwise is silly. The vehicles for our shores are built for here, not elsewhere. When our companies need to build a vehicle overseas, they just build it in that area, just like the Germans, Japanese, and Koreans do here.
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      07-06-2018, 03:27 PM   #131
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Tell me of a country that has real democracy? There isn't one
Switzerland is an example maybe.

Democracy is people voting for someone and then that person can do (almost) whatever they want until the next election......
Lol dream on Swiss . The Greeks founded democracy now modern world has diff view points of what that is
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      07-06-2018, 03:44 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by norMcal View Post

Democrats love to talk about taxing the rich. Well there you go, what is wrong with taxing German luxury cars? Isn't that taxing the rich? Of course in turn we then need to lower other taxes to help growth and productivity in our own country.

That chart is very misleading. Yes, the trade deficit has gone down (a bit), but look at the amounts on the left. Even the bottom of the chart is still $600 Billion/year. So we reduced it some, but it is certainly still a HUGE problem. And BTW, it was hardly Obama's doing. Most of the decline seems to have happened before he took office and a lot of it was probably due to the recession, as we stopped buying as much during that time.
Here is a chart of the last 10 years. The reduction from nearly 800 billion a year in deficit 2005 is pretty apparent. We are enjoying the 2nd largest economic expansion in history and yet our deficit has shrunk to 2003 levels. We shall see what Tariffs do to help us increase our exports.

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