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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 82 32.03%
Trump Trump-umphant. 88 34.38%
Inclusive 18 7.03%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 74 28.91%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 10 3.91%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 256. You may not vote on this poll

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      11-13-2019, 04:33 PM   #2223
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Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Obama inherited a horrific recession and as always things they climb out of them. You or I could have been president and the market would have corrected itself regardless, it always has.
Obomas last two years in office the market pretty much flattened out due to his poor economic plans, domestic mistakes and his stupid, smug comments like those jobs aren’t coming back.
Black unemployment is the lowest it’s ever been and the dems always say they’re the ones looking out for them. I bet many black voters see the light now on how they were used by dems.
You don't think Trump would have bragged about those stats? He's been bragging about unemployment since inauguration day yet he essentially just kept it on track. If it were up to Trump, we would have negative rates and no financial laws at all. It's like a babysitter who lets you just eat candy for every meal. There's just no foresight whatsoever. If/when there is a pullback, he's fine with us having no dry powder to counter with? Thank goodness there are responsible adults in the room.

The sad reality is that many manufacturing jobs are not actually coming back. Automation alone is killing those jobs, not just shipping them overseas. Remember when Trump said he was going to bring back coal? Well there have been 50 coal mine closures since he took office and over 50 announced closures on the horizon. I guess you sleep better at night being flat-out lied to.
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      11-13-2019, 04:44 PM   #2224
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Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
What is clear is without whistle blower testimony the impeachment will be DOA in the Senate as it should be.

Can anyone on this board say that a defendant has no right to question his accuser?
This Batshit Crazy Republican would like to know the logic of someone who feels the defendant does not have that right. And remember this is the U.S. tot the Soviet Union.
Trump is not yet a defendant. Once he is he will be accused of his wrongdoings by the house. The whistleblower reported this to the IG, from there the Trump admin released a transcript that on it's own could be dismissed as Trump being Trump until you add in all the stuff that we have learned since then about what Guiliani, Mulvaney, Perry, and company have been up to which all line up with what Trump said on the transcript putting him at the top of this and not Mulvaney.

Whistleblowers have protections for a reason.

Aside from identifying the whistleblower for retaliation, what purpose would having the whistleblower up there serve?

If all we had was a whistleblower report with nothing to corroborate the story it would have been dismissed long ago, but the evidence of what happened over there is so far beyond the need to hear from the whistleblower it is only retaliation that remains as an objective to pursue them.
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      11-13-2019, 04:56 PM   #2225
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Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
What is clear is without whistle blower testimony the impeachment will be DOA in the Senate as it should be.

Can anyone on this board say that a defendant has no right to question his accuser?
This Batshit Crazy Republican would like to know the logic of someone who feels the defendant does not have that right. And remember this is the U.S. tot the Soviet Union.

1) The 6A which states that a defendant has the right to face their accuser applies to criminal investigations. As your fellow republicans throughout this thread have pointed out, this isn't a criminal investigation. Trump supporters desperately regurgitating any propaganda thrown at them is not atypical.

2) If you have a problem with federal law, you are more than welcome to call your representative to rally to turn over the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989. This is America, we don't violate federal law just because we feel like it. If you don't like it, go to the Soviet Union where the President is above the law. Evidently, that's what the batshit republicans want. The sane republicans can stay.

You are too smart for this, even though you are a republican

Don't believe everything you hear, research for yourself.
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      11-13-2019, 05:11 PM   #2226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
You don't think Trump would have bragged about those stats? He's been bragging about unemployment since inauguration day yet he essentially just kept it on track. If it were up to Trump, we would have negative rates and no financial laws at all. It's like a babysitter who lets you just eat candy for every meal. There's just no foresight whatsoever. If/when there is a pullback, he's fine with us having no dry powder to counter with? Thank goodness there are responsible adults in the room.

The sad reality is that many manufacturing job are not actually coming back. Automation alone is killing those jobs, not just shipping them overseas. Remember when Trump said he was going to bring back coal? Well there have been 50 coal mine closures since he took office and over 50 announced closures on the horizon. I guess you sleep better at night being flat-out lied to.
Of course he would have bragged about it, he brags about everything. Kept it on track, as I said look at the lowest EVER unemployment rate for black Americans. You can try and make it insignificant calling it on track but the economy is cooking, interest rates are low, unemployment is very low, coal is doing a hell of a lot better then if Clinton were President, she already warned us what she was going to do. The fact that times are changing and coal isn’t really taking off like it’s the only energy source. We have lots of new energy technology going on today and isn’t a surprise to anyone, except you maybe. The fact that he said coal will not be killed is more then the left promises.
Unless you're in the financial meetings with Trumps team and him then you really shouldn’t comment on what he knows or what shots he’s calling. Bottom line, he’s the captain of the ship and calls the shots. He’s been right up to now.
As far as manufacturers coming back, really? More are coming back both big and small, you choose to not see. Who’s been hoodwinked? you were. You’re probably losing sleep knowing Mr Trump will very likely get another four more.
https://investor**********/2017/01/1...ck-to-america/

I sleep very well at night, my portfolio is doing nicely and all is well with Trump at the helm. When you go to bed tonight sleep tight and and dream a dream of Bernie.
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      11-13-2019, 05:14 PM   #2227
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There are very fine people on both sides here. Both sides.
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      11-13-2019, 05:33 PM   #2228
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When did I ever say I was a liberal?
On this forum, if you don't like Trump you're a commie Lib.
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      11-13-2019, 05:36 PM   #2229
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Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Of course he would have bragged about it, he brags about everything. Kept it on track, as I said look at the lowest EVER unemployment rate for black Americans. You can try and make it insignificant calling it on track but the economy is cooking, interest rates are low, unemployment is very low, coal is doing a hell of a lot better then if Clinton were President, she already warned us what she was going to do. The fact that times are changing and coal isn’t really taking off like it’s the only energy source. We have lots of new energy technology going on today and isn’t a surprise to anyone, except you maybe. The fact that he said coal will not be killed is more then the left promises.
Unless you're in the financial meetings with Trumps team and him then you really shouldn’t comment on what he knows or what shots he’s calling. Bottom line, he’s the captain of the ship and calls the shots. He’s been right up to now.
As far as manufacturers coming back, really? More are coming back both big and small, you choose to not see. Who’s been hoodwinked? you were. You’re probably losing sleep knowing Mr Trump will very likely get another four more.
https://investor**********/2017/01/1...ck-to-america/

I sleep very well at night, my portfolio is doing nicely and all is well with Trump at the helm. When you go to bed tonight sleep tight and and dream a dream of Bernie.
Employment numbers are better than they have ever been for black Americans. True. There is a long way before things are equitable economically, but you have to start somewhere. Excellent, hopefully they can build generational wealth.

I am having trouble seeing anything specific Trump has done to achieve this. Tax cuts? Loosening EPA regulations? What of his actions have done anything targeting this group to increase their numbers?

The previous administration pursued initiatives to increase equity in minority groups. Aside from not dismantling these initiatives or wrecking the economy I am going to point to what was previously done achieving results.

But if you have a better idea as to why the numbers are what they are, something specific I am all ears.
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      11-13-2019, 05:37 PM   #2230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
What is clear is without whistle blower testimony the impeachment will be DOA in the Senate as it should be.

Can anyone on this board say that a defendant has no right to question his accuser?
This Batshit Crazy Republican would like to know the logic of someone who feels the defendant does not have that right. And remember this is the U.S. tot the Soviet Union.
In an impeachment I can absolutely say that. It's a 100% political process - even the trial in the Senate. You have zero "right to face your accuser".

Besides, the whistleblower isn't even his accuser, he/she simply reported stories he/she heard. His accusers are Taylor, Hill, Sondland, Vindman, Yovanovich, maybe Bolton and Mulvaney, et al. They're all going to be sitting right there, front and center.

There is nothing for the whistleblower to testify about. Q: Did you really hear reports of the President abusing his power and attempting to force Ukraine into opening an investigation on the Bidens/Burisma threatening the withholding of aid if they didn't cooperate? A: Yes.



We already have multiple people testifying to that very fact under oath.

The whistleblower is a distraction because he/she is completely irrelevant to the accusations at hand.
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      11-13-2019, 05:41 PM   #2231
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Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Of course he would have bragged about it, he brags about everything. Kept it on track, as I said look at the lowest EVER unemployment rate for black Americans. You can try and make it insignificant calling it on track but the economy is cooking, interest rates are low, unemployment is very low, coal is doing a hell of a lot better then if Clinton were President, she already warned us what she was going to do. The fact that times are changing and coal isn’t really taking off like it’s the only energy source. We have lots of new energy technology going on today and isn’t a surprise to anyone, except you maybe. The fact that he said coal will not be killed is more then the left promises.
Unless you're in the financial meetings with Trumps team and him then you really shouldn’t comment on what he knows or what shots he’s calling. Bottom line, he’s the captain of the ship and calls the shots. He’s been right up to now.
As far as manufacturers coming back, really? More are coming back both big and small, you choose to not see. Who’s been hoodwinked? you were. You’re probably losing sleep knowing Mr Trump will very likely get another four more.
https://investor**********/2017/01/1...ck-to-america/

I sleep very well at night, my portfolio is doing nicely and all is well with Trump at the helm. When you go to bed tonight sleep tight and and dream a dream of Bernie.
My portfolio is doing gangbusters and my taxes are low after being raped during the Obama administration, but even I can see that these are all just shiny distractions. My personal financial gain isn't worth what Trump has done to this country. He should be ashamed and we should be ashamed.
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      11-13-2019, 05:50 PM   #2232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post

2) If you have a problem with federal law, you are more than welcome to call your representative to rally to turn over the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989. This is America, we don't violate federal law just because we feel like it
Wrong statute but hey . Intelligence community is covered by the intelligence community whistleblower protection act of 1998 and subsequent presidential and intelligence policy directives https://fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/R45345.pdf

And in America, we apparently just amend the requirement for direct firsthand knowledge by the whistleblower as part of the complaint process to let this one just slide on in...
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      11-13-2019, 06:02 PM   #2233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post

2) If you have a problem with federal law, you are more than welcome to call your representative to rally to turn over the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989. This is America, we don't violate federal law just because we feel like it
Wrong statute but hey . Intelligence community is covered by the intelligence community whistleblower protection act of 1998 and subsequent presidential and intelligence policy directives https://fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/R45345.pdf

And in America, we apparently just amend the requirement for direct firsthand knowledge by the whistleblower as part of the complaint process to let this one just slide on in...
Because everything he/she alleged is true, there's corroborating evidence?
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      11-13-2019, 06:33 PM   #2234
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Because everything he/she alleged is true, there's corroborating evidence?
Well by all means, change the rules then

What I’ve seen so far is some opinions from people who heard some things second hand and were equally concerned as this whistleblower, not much else. Now if you had Zelensky complaining he got strong armed with the aid as leverage, I might think there was a lot more to it than a political hit job.
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      11-13-2019, 06:45 PM   #2235
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Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Wrong statute but hey . Intelligence community is covered by the intelligence community whistleblower protection act of 1998 and subsequent presidential and intelligence policy directives https://fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/R45345.pdf
Thanks for the clarification. I always appreciate and recognize when I've made an objective mistake.

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Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
And in America, we apparently just amend the requirement for direct firsthand knowledge by the whistleblower as part of the complaint process to let this one just slide on in...
Actually, that was just concocted story perpetuated by a Trump rage tweet stemming from conservative slanted media outlet that inaccurately interpreted a disclosure form as policy. A form is NOT policy. Law is policy. In fact, Intelligence Community Directive 120, which was last updated in 2016, includes "reasonable belief" which is not limited to first hand information.

Section D.2.a:

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICD/ICD%20120.pdf

Yes, this is a current and active directive enabled in 2014 and updated in 2016 which allowed the whistleblower full rights for Protected Disclosure. It was NOT changed in 2019.

I encourage all to just look into it yourselves. The whistleblower is PROTECTED and there is nothing anyone can do about it within the boundaries of the law.
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      11-13-2019, 06:49 PM   #2236
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Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Well by all means, change the rules then

What I’ve seen so far is some opinions from people who heard some things second hand and were equally concerned as this whistleblower, not much else. Now if you had Zelensky complaining he got strong armed with the aid as leverage, I might think there was a lot more to it than a political hit job.
The first hand testimony is damaging, which is why the GOP is explicitly ignoring it and trying to distract everyone by harping on the second hand testimony. It is not the only testimony.

Zelensky's hands are tied because the aid and alliance with the US is too important to his country. Why would he jeopardize that? He has nothing to gain from throwing Trump under the bus. I'm surprised that people can use this argument with a straight face. It's as if the world were very simple and lives weren't at stake. This isn't a cartoon or WWE wrestling, things aren't that clear cut. I'm sure there are many republicans AND democrats who's hands are tied because of politics. This shouldn't be surprising.
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      11-13-2019, 06:53 PM   #2237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post

Can anyone on this board say that a defendant has no right to question his accuser?
This Batshit Crazy Republican would like to know the logic of someone who feels the defendant does not have that right. And remember this is the U.S. tot the Soviet Union.
I'll say it. He's a whistleblower which is basically a formal "hey, you should look at this.." ala Deepthroat that started the whole Nixon thing. <== hey lookie, a precidence in a presidential impeachment...
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      11-13-2019, 07:06 PM   #2238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post


Actually, that was just concocted story perpetuated by a Trump rage tweet stemming from conservative slanted media outlet that inaccurately interpreted a disclosure form as policy. A form is NOT policy. Law is policy. In fact, Intelligence Community Directive 120, which was last updated in 2016, includes "reasonable belief" which is not limited to first hand information.

Section D.2.a:

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICD/ICD%20120.pdf

Yes, this is a current and active directive enabled in 2014 and updated in 2016 which allowed the whistleblower full rights for Protected Disclosure. It was NOT changed in 2019.

I encourage all to just look into it yourselves. The whistleblower is PROTECTED and there is nothing anyone can do about it within the boundaries of the law.
Source for it being concocted? As far as I saw, there were several inquiries for explanation on why the form was changed and , perhaps I missed it, not much of a reply explaining it. If it is as simple as you allege, then it would have been easily explained and put to bed.

As to reasonable belief, you could fly a plane through that language. You could easily argue that the inspector general defined a reasonable belief to be firsthand knowledge - something that was codified in the policy and procedures.

There is also no explicit protection from a whistleblower’s identity being revealed - these laws are designed to protect against workplace retaliation. it’s a badly kept secret at this point.

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/06/77648...iolate-any-law
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      11-13-2019, 07:31 PM   #2239
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      11-13-2019, 07:36 PM   #2240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post

Zelensky's hands are tied because the aid and alliance with the US is too important to his country. Why would he jeopardize that? He has nothing to gain from throwing Trump under the bus. I'm surprised that people can use this argument with a straight face. It's as if the world were very simple and lives weren't at stake. This isn't a cartoon or WWE wrestling, things aren't that clear cut. I'm sure there are many republicans AND democrats who's hands are tied because of politics. This shouldn't be surprising.
I say it with a straight face because Biden is one of the most pro-Ukraine guys out there. By throwing Trump under the bus he probably wouldn’t lose much in the next year or so because of all the scrutiny and he’d gain an even more important ally who has been the front runner in the campaign to run against trump in 2020.

It’s also how we partially got to this point. If Zelensky’ s predecessor hadn’t felt the same way, Biden wouldn’t have to be defending his boast of withholding aid to get the prosecutor investigating his son’s employer fired.

I personally say screw them all. Allowing all these political machinations undermines our republic. Things like executive orders, filibuster procedural rules and impeachments all seem like great ideas when it’s to your party’s advantage but it comes back to bite us all in the ass soon enough.
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      11-13-2019, 07:44 PM   #2241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blood View Post
Because everything he/she alleged is true, there's corroborating evidence?
Well by all means, change the rules then

What I've seen so far is some opinions from people who heard some things second hand and were equally concerned as this whistleblower, not much else. Now if you had Zelensky complaining he got strong armed with the aid as leverage, I might think there was a lot more to it than a political hit job.
Opinions? No. Facts. Testimony corroborated by others.
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      11-13-2019, 07:49 PM   #2242
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Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
I say it with a straight face because Biden is one of the most pro-Ukraine guys out there. By throwing Trump under the bus he probably wouldn’t lose much in the next year or so because of all the scrutiny and he’d gain an even more important ally who has been the front runner in the campaign to run against trump in 2020.

It’s also how we partially got to this point. If Zelensky’ s predecessor hadn’t felt the same way, Biden wouldn’t have to be defending his boast of withholding aid to get the prosecutor investigating his son’s employer fired.

I personally say screw them all. Allowing all these political machinations undermines our republic. Things like executive orders, filibuster procedural rules and impeachments all seem like great ideas when it’s to your party’s advantage but it comes back to bite us all in the ass soon enough.
Biden isn't the sitting President and Trump is unpredictable. Even if Zelensky doesn't come to the DNC rescue, the US wants the Ukraine as an ally, the next POTUS regardless of party wants this as well. Zelensky has nothing to gain and lots to lose by throwing Trump under.
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      11-13-2019, 08:04 PM   #2243
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      11-13-2019, 08:06 PM   #2244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
I say it with a straight face because Biden is one of the most pro-Ukraine guys out there. By throwing Trump under the bus he probably wouldn’t lose much in the next year or so because of all the scrutiny and he’d gain an even more important ally who has been the front runner in the campaign to run against trump in 2020.

It’s also how we partially got to this point. If Zelensky’ s predecessor hadn’t felt the same way, Biden wouldn’t have to be defending his boast of withholding aid to get the prosecutor investigating his son’s employer fired.

I personally say screw them all. Allowing all these political machinations undermines our republic. Things like executive orders, filibuster procedural rules and impeachments all seem like great ideas when it’s to your party’s advantage but it comes back to bite us all in the ass soon enough.
It's hard to watch partisan discussions as someone who doesn't exclusively vote Red or Blue but base my decision on who the actual person is. Saying Biden is guilty isn't a defense. It should be separate things. By all means investigate Biden too but we're talking about whether withholding aid from an ally was the right thing to do. I think we can all agree that it was withheld so what was the reason for that?
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