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      07-05-2018, 01:24 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
So why do they need the tariff in the first place?
Hey I'm not gonna pretend to have a good deal of knowledge into the history of these ... so the short answer is I don't know why they were put into place in the first place. Likely a holdover from an era when European manufacturers were hurting. Someone with some historical perspective can chime in here.

That's not a pertinent question here. Since it's the US administration expending political capital and good will to try to have them changed, it's really incumbent on them to make a case of what good such changes could do for the US auto industry. Side stepping THAT question with asking why they were put into place is really just a red herring.

Again, I ask what would this achieve NOW and why are the U.S. manufacturers coming out AGAINST it?

Agreed, this is all more complicated than the headlines or slogans ... and it's pretty well documented that we've got someone in charge that doesn't have the attention span or interest to even have people that ARE experts in these matters spend any time explaining them. Business is supposed to be this man's expertise. It's business 101 to show what would be the potential bottom line gains for the US industry and that's yet to be articulated, given that it's been clearly shown that EU buyers have little to no interest in American cars, regardless the tariff.
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      07-05-2018, 01:25 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
You know he didnít write that book right?
Yes.
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      07-05-2018, 01:28 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
You know we have tariffs in place too right BEFORE all this started right?

I am enjoying this little trade war we are having. I use to travel a lot for work and see how much cheaper we have it here.

High time we start paying what everyone elseís pays. People are spoiled here.
Cost of living in the US isn't even close to the bottom - we pay quite a bit:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...isplayColumn=0
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      07-05-2018, 01:30 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
Cost of living in the US isn't even close to the bottom - we pay quite a bit:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...isplayColumn=0
Compare prices for food in France and buying fruits and veggies in Korea, Taiwan, etc.

Buy an M3 in Australia.

They don’t have Costco’s in Singapore.

I’m not looking to live in Botswana or Swaziland so try apples to apples.
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      07-05-2018, 01:35 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
Compare prices for food in France and buying fruits and veggies in Korea, Taiwan, etc.

Buy an M3 in Australia.

They donít have Costcoís in Singapore.
Hey, don't kill the messenger.

All of those things are factored into a cost of living index.
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      07-05-2018, 01:36 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
So prior to last month, depending on when this was, it would have been a +1.5% or -1.5% difference in the opposite direction. Today it would be if all the documentation isn't in order and filed with USITC prior to importation.

As to who made the US - EU trade deal? No one since a comprehensive trade agreement doesn't exist.
This was 5 years ago or so.

Again, deal or no deal, it isn't free trade.
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      07-05-2018, 01:37 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Yes.
Sure didnít sound like it. But if you say it enough Iím sure it will be true.
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      07-05-2018, 01:42 PM   #52
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Hey, don't kill the messenger.

All of those things are factored into a cost of living index.
Hey I asked someone why people from China are buying suitcases of stuff here of things MADE IN CHINA, and they told me it is cheaper here.

Iíve LIVED in parts of Asia for work and I know what things cost and what people can afford.
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      07-05-2018, 01:43 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
You know we have tariffs in place too right BEFORE all this started right?
That has nothing to do with the argument that some people are making. There is a clear contradiction in claiming that the tariff is both pointless, but it should not be repealed.
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      07-05-2018, 01:48 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
That has nothing to do with the argument that some people are making. There is a clear contradiction in claiming that the tariff is both pointless, but it should not be repealed.
Laws and tariffs are the same here as in other places. They are to protect an interest whether it be a lobby, a company, or another source of money for politicians.

Arguing why they are there to serve no purpose is naive. Money makes liars of us all.
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      07-05-2018, 01:48 PM   #55
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I'll take Bureaucracy over Stupidity any day...
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      07-05-2018, 01:49 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by MarkDemma View Post
Hey I'm not gonna pretend to have a good deal of knowledge into the history of these ... so the short answer is I don't know why they were put into place in the first place. Likely a holdover from an era when European manufacturers were hurting. Someone with some historical perspective can chime in here.

That's not a pertinent question here. Since it's the US administration expending political capital and good will to try to have them changed, it's really incumbent on them to make a case of what good such changes could do for the US auto industry. Side stepping THAT question with asking why they were put into place is really just a red herring.

Again, I ask what would this achieve NOW and why are the U.S. manufacturers coming out AGAINST it?

Agreed, this is all more complicated than the headlines or slogans ... and it's pretty well documented that we've got someone in charge that doesn't have the attention span or interest to even have people that ARE experts in these matters spend any time explaining them. Business is supposed to be this man's expertise. It's business 101 to show what would be the potential bottom line gains for the US industry and that's yet to be articulated, given that it's been clearly shown that EU buyers have little to no interest in American cars, regardless the tariff.
I think you and I actually agree. The point I'm making is set against those who claim that the EU tariffs have no effect. My counterpoint is that if that's true, then the argument is effectively over. If they have no effect, then the EU would repeal them readily.

My viewpoint should not be extended to support the ideals of the Trump administration.
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      07-05-2018, 01:52 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
Laws and tariffs are the same here as in other places. They are to protect an interest whether it be a lobby, a company, or another source of money for politicians.

Arguing why they are there to serve no purpose is naive.
Which is exactly my point. Thanks.

You should talk to drjoe66 and MarkDemma, who both made the argument that the tariffs are somehow moot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkDemma View Post
It's true that there is an imbalance here, the US imposes a 2.5% tariff on cars coming from the EU while there is a 10% tariff the other way. The question should be whether getting the EU to lower this rate would make a difference in sales of American cars in Europe.

This is highly doubtful that it would make much of an impact. With fuel prices much higher in the EU, smaller cars / engines are what sell. American car makers are moving to all but abandon selling cars at all, moving towards SUVs and trucks with larger engines and lower fuel economy. There is a niche market for things like the Mustang, but for folks that really want one and can afford a gas guzzling V8 muscle car, the extra 7.5% doesn't really matter one way or another to them.

So while technically yes there is a tariff imbalance here, and it FEELS like hey we should do something about it, the reality of it is that even if expending all this political capital and good will with our closest allies gets the concessions asked for, it won't really do much or anything to help American car manufacturers. The real proof here is that THEY aren't asking for it, in fact they are asking for them to STOP trying. If there was any way that this approach was likely to benefit US automobile manufacturers, don't you think they would be lobbying FOR it rather than against? They have done the analysis and believe it will be ultimately harmful to them, which begs the question - why are we taking this approach?
Quote:
Originally Posted by drjoe66 View Post
Exactly. Most of my German friends would never consider buying a car made in the US. A Ford F 150 or a Dummer is simply not a useful car in most of Europe, no matter how you change the tariffs. Build a great product and people will buy it (as an example, see German cars in the USA).
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      07-05-2018, 01:59 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
This was 5 years ago or so.

Again, deal or no deal, it isn't free trade.
Of course it isn't free trade. Until there is a Free-Trade Agreement addressing the tariffs that have been in place for 70 years, it is basically deal or no deal.

Going back to the main topic, the US Chicken Tax is the only thing keeping GM, Ford, and Chrysler US solvent. If you are for free trade, Chicken Tax has to go AND the US must fully include RoW Standards and Regulations.
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      07-05-2018, 02:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Which is exactly my point. Thanks.

You should talk to drjoe66 and MarkDemma, who both made the argument that the tariffs are somehow moot.
That is not what I am saying. The confusion is when you bring up others without clarifying your viewpoint.
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      07-05-2018, 02:18 PM   #60
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Someone mentioned he thinks big and negotiates hard and runs the country like a business...but the business is over 300 million people and the man went bankrupt 6x...I don't think gambling with that many lives when we have enemies overseas salivating for our demise is a great move but hey you never know.
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      07-05-2018, 02:20 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by lab_rat View Post
I think that's shortsighted thinking.

This "tariff war" is another example of the "Art of The Deal".

Politics is a like a game of poker & a game of chess played on a massive scale.

In that regard, he is no different than any other politician.

Despite the constant banter of "he's an idiot", he sure does seem to be effective.

But that's just my opinion.

Effective at what? Getting things done - Nope. Drawing attention - yes.
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      07-05-2018, 02:22 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjoe66 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkDemma View Post
It's true that there is an imbalance here, the US imposes a 2.5% tariff on cars coming from the EU while there is a 10% tariff the other way. The question should be whether getting the EU to lower this rate would make a difference in sales of American cars in Europe.

This is highly doubtful that it would make much of an impact. With fuel prices much higher in the EU, smaller cars / engines are what sell. American car makers are moving to all but abandon selling cars at all, moving towards SUVs and trucks with larger engines and lower fuel economy. There is a niche market for things like the Mustang, but for folks that really want one and can afford a gas guzzling V8 muscle car, the extra 7.5% doesn't really matter one way or another to them.

So while technically yes there is a tariff imbalance here, and it FEELS like hey we should do something about it, the reality of it is that even if expending all this political capital and good will with our closest allies gets the concessions asked for, it won't really do much or anything to help American car manufacturers. The real proof here is that THEY aren't asking for it, in fact they are asking for them to STOP trying. If there was any way that this approach was likely to benefit US automobile manufacturers, don't you think they would be lobbying FOR it rather than against? They have done the analysis and believe it will be ultimately harmful to them, which begs the question - why are we taking this approach?
Exactly. Most of my German friends would never consider buying a car made in the US. A Ford F 150 or a Dummer is simply not a useful car in most of Europe, no matter how you change the tariffs. Build a great product and people will buy it (as an example, see German cars in the USA).
I think the great products that Europeans want are built in Europe...and sell quite well (see: Focus, Fiesta, Transit van, etc).

I would think the F150s and "Dummers" (which aren't even built anymore?) are a pair of an irrelevant examples to this thread.

Many of these auto companies are building local (see GM in China, Ford in Europe). This aids in dealing with circumventing many of these issues raised in the thread (tariffs, RoW crash regulations) altogether.
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      07-05-2018, 02:22 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JRV View Post
Someone mentioned he thinks big and negotiates hard and runs the country like a business...but the business is over 300 million people and the man went bankrupt 6x...I don't think gambling with that many lives when we have enemies overseas salivating for our demise is a great move but hey you never know.
^
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      07-05-2018, 02:28 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkDemma View Post

Again, I ask what would this achieve NOW and why are the U.S. manufacturers coming out AGAINST it?

Agreed, this is all more complicated than the headlines or slogans ... and it's pretty well documented that we've got someone in charge that doesn't have the attention span or interest to even have people that ARE experts in these matters spend any time explaining them. Business is supposed to be this man's expertise. It's business 101 to show what would be the potential bottom line gains for the US industry and that's yet to be articulated, given that it's been clearly shown that EU buyers have little to no interest in American cars, regardless the tariff.
The problem is, Trump was in the real estate business. "Business" means so many things. The complexity of global trade, interconnected web of product components, and rise of non-manufactured goods (services, software, processes) is what 45 doesn't understand.

He ONLY sees trade in tangible manufactured goods. That's the most ridiculous view on the world. So when he only focuses on tangible manufactured goods, the issue of global trade and interconnected web of product components becomes a problem.

He ONLY sees things in a simplistic way. Frankly, he should have started with his own family member's business. Yeah, you know, the Ivanka Trump branded clothing line that's all made in a sweatshop in Asia. Maybe he should try to get all that figured out in a "fair trade" scenario where the US has already lost the manufacturing prowess (that's a good thing btw) before he starts messing with more highly sensitive and impactful products like cars and planes.
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      07-05-2018, 02:33 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkDemma View Post

Again, I ask what would this achieve NOW and why are the U.S. manufacturers coming out AGAINST it?

Agreed, this is all more complicated than the headlines or slogans ... and it's pretty well documented that we've got someone in charge that doesn't have the attention span or interest to even have people that ARE experts in these matters spend any time explaining them. Business is supposed to be this man's expertise. It's business 101 to show what would be the potential bottom line gains for the US industry and that's yet to be articulated, given that it's been clearly shown that EU buyers have little to no interest in American cars, regardless the tariff.
The problem is, Trump was in the real estate business. "Business" means so many things. The complexity of global trade, interconnected web of product components, and rise of non-manufactured goods (services, software, processes) is what 45 doesn't understand.

He ONLY sees trade in tangible manufactured goods. That's the most ridiculous view on the world. So when he only focuses on tangible manufactured goods, the issue of global trade and interconnected web of product components becomes a problem.

He ONLY sees things in a simplistic way. Frankly, he should have started with his own family member's business. Yeah, you know, the Ivanka Trump branded clothing line that's all made in a sweatshop in Asia. Maybe he should try to get all that figured out in a "fair trade" scenario where the US has already lost the manufacturing prowess (that's a good thing btw) before he starts messing with more highly sensitive and impactful products like cars and planes.
Not sure why losing manufacturing prowess is a "good thing" for the US. That's an interesting viewpoint. Care to expound?
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      07-05-2018, 03:20 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lab_rat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkDemma View Post

Again, I ask what would this achieve NOW and why are the U.S. manufacturers coming out AGAINST it?

Agreed, this is all more complicated than the headlines or slogans ... and it's pretty well documented that we've got someone in charge that doesn't have the attention span or interest to even have people that ARE experts in these matters spend any time explaining them. Business is supposed to be this man's expertise. It's business 101 to show what would be the potential bottom line gains for the US industry and that's yet to be articulated, given that it's been clearly shown that EU buyers have little to no interest in American cars, regardless the tariff.
The problem is, Trump was in the real estate business. "Business" means so many things. The complexity of global trade, interconnected web of product components, and rise of non-manufactured goods (services, software, processes) is what 45 doesn't understand.

He ONLY sees trade in tangible manufactured goods. That's the most ridiculous view on the world. So when he only focuses on tangible manufactured goods, the issue of global trade and interconnected web of product components becomes a problem.

He ONLY sees things in a simplistic way. Frankly, he should have started with his own family member's business. Yeah, you know, the Ivanka Trump branded clothing line that's all made in a sweatshop in Asia. Maybe he should try to get all that figured out in a "fair trade" scenario where the US has already lost the manufacturing prowess (that's a good thing btw) before he starts messing with more highly sensitive and impactful products like cars and planes.
Not sure why losing manufacturing prowess is a "good thing" for the US. That's an interesting viewpoint. Care to expound?
So Pruitt just resigned. Yeah no issues in that admin, march on. lol
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