[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Maybe the Camaro with its new chassis (dynamic handling) has moved into the realm of a GT and away from a "muscle car" or "pony car", as was its original designation. I really think with the new emphasis on handling that GM and Ford has put into the Camaro and Mustang the term "Pony Car" or "Muscle Car" is really quite antiquated. Other than the perception of "luxury" (or near luxury as the 3-series is really classified as) the Camaro and Mustang are a lot closer to the 3-series (i.e. sports sedan and sports coupe) and can be cross-shopped with the current BMW 4-series.

Agreed. This is probably the proper designation for the Camaro, regardless of the power plant.

Cheers-mk

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The expense of owning a Z4 Coupe is the need to carry a "spotter" with you while you drive it so you can park. I keep one on staff...

Indeed.

I get quite a few spontaneous offers for spotter duty when I am driving the i8. I have no idea why.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

Most sports cars do have poor visibility. A Camaro is not a sports car. What part of that don't you understand? A GT car is supposed to give you the comforts/utility that a sports car does not along with performance. Your Z4 is a sports car.

My CaymanS was quite easy to see out of. The Vette was a bit tougher. NONE of them was as remotely difficult to see out of as the rental Camaro SS I had in Florida. It was abysmal. That's just one of about 30 reasons why I'd never own one, however. Never another Gov't Motors vehicle for me.

My point is regardless of the designation of the car, if it has poor visibility you have declared it un-drivable. So a sports car is supposed to have poor visibility but worth driving and it must be "tolerated", while a sports coupe (i.e. Camaro) that has poor visibility is not worth driving and is intolerable to own? Poor visibility is poor visibility regardless of the type of car or who manufactures it. I could make an argument that I should have never bought my E90 if all I cared about was its visibility level. Compared to my E30 that I replaced with the E90, the E30 had the best visibility of any car I've owned, but there were other attributes of the E90 that compensated for the visibility (like it was new ).

Your trollish Gov't Motors comment indicates you really just want to bash GM rather than have any serious discussion about the subject. GM will sell hundreds of thousands of Camaros compared to BMW's 4-series, and by some Posters accounts of ATS sales for example, in that comparative sense, the BMW F3X 4-series is a piece of crap.

[FriskyDingo]

Originally Posted by eric_spt

I said at the limit on the track dead stock, the C7 will be far superior. The PSS ZP's compared to the F1's are not even close.

My comments come from pro drivers who have driven both on the same track, 6th gen's have been on track for development for a while.

Put the same tire on both cars and things probably change quite a bit. I'd even say most of the Z06 performance difference on the track comes from tires more so than the 650hp. The Cup tires on the Z07 is the biggest performance improvement.

Not saying its not a great car but the difference in performance is there and just keeps moving up to a higher and higher skilled driver to see the difference.

It also looks way better in person than in the pictures. They have been on the road here for a while and tend to photograph poorly especially from the front.

Yes, the C7 will be superior and I agreed to as much. But it is nowhere near twice the car. A Z06, perhaps, but even it has been plagued with heat soak and overheating issues on track.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Indeed.

I get quite a few spontaneous offers for spotter duty when I am driving the i8. I have no idea why.

When next I'm in SoCal I'll volunteer as your i8 spotter and maybe you can then change my mind about it being the "car of the future"

Okay, off to tackle the E90's clutch. I'm one trans bolt away from insanity...

Peace

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

When next I'm in SoCal I'll volunteer as your i8 spotter and maybe you can then change my mind about it being the "car of the future"

Okay, off to tackle the E90's clutch. I'm one trans bolt away from insanity...

Peace

South Louisiana now. The offer still stands...I know that you can stand the humidity being in Maryland.

Good luck on the clutch!

Once the hips are replaced I will be able to resume that kind of work on cars again. In the meanwhile I will live vicariously through your experience!

Cheers-mk

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

My point is regardless of the designation of the car, if it has poor visibility you have declared it un-drivable. So a sports car is supposed to have poor visibility but worth driving and it must be "tolerated", while a sports coupe (i.e. Camaro) that has poor visibility is not worth driving and is intolerable to own? Poor visibility is poor visibility regardless of the type of car or who manufactures it. I could make an argument that I should have never bought my E90 if all I cared about was its visibility level. Compared to my E30 that I replaced with the E90, the E30 had the best visibility of any car I've owned, but there were other attributes of the E90 that compensated for the visibility (like it was new ).

Your trollish Gov't Motors comment indicates you really just want to bash GM rather than have any serious discussion about the subject. GM will sell hundreds of thousands of Camaros compared to BMW's 4-series, and by some Posters accounts of ATS sales for example, in that comparative sense, the BMW F3X 4-series is a piece of crap.

You really struggle with this don't you? So you would be "ok" daily driving a car with piss poor visibility? You would "tolerate" that? Good for you. I wouldn't for a daily driver. A sports car is a different story and is obvioulsy not driven every day. Thus, you make "sacrficies" (for lack of a better term) like lack of utility, comfort, visibility et al. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend.

I've already pointed out the main reasons why I'd never buy this car (see cartoonish design, cheap ass materials used, et al). Do I despise GM? Yep, I sure as hell do. Having said that, could I have swallowed my pride and bought a C7 Vette if the ass end didn't look like the abortion that it is? Yes.

Hundreds of thousands of Camaros? ummmm, they sell bewtween 80-90K per year. BMW 4 series sales were 119K. Nice try though. Why does GM even sell that many Camaros? because they are cheap. Same thing goes for the Mustang (which I would buy 1,000 times before a Camaro). They are cheap and Americans love them. How many Camaros do you see anywhere else besides US?

The ATS styling is probably worse than the Camaro. Probably why sales were down 22% from '13 to '14. You couldn't give me one of those things. Respect it's performance (the V version) but there is nothing remotely appealing about that car.

Go buy your GM junk. I'll stick to other brands.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

You really struggle with this don't you? So you would be "ok" daily driving a car with piss poor visibility? You would "tolerate" that? Good for you. I wouldn't for a daily driver. A sports car is a different story and is obvioulsy not driven every day. Thus, you make "sacrficies" (for lack of a better term) like lack of utility, comfort, visibility et al. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend.

I've already pointed out the main reasons why I'd never buy this car (see cartoonish design, cheap ass materials used, et al). Do I despise GM? Yep, I sure as hell do. Having said that, could I have swallowed my pride and bought a C7 Vette if the ass end didn't look like the abortion that it is? Yes.

Hundreds of thousands of Camaros? ummmm, they sell bewtween 80-90K per year. BMW 4 series sales were 119K. Nice try though. Why does GM even sell that many Camaros? because they are cheap. Same thing goes for the Mustang (which I would buy 1,000 times before a Camaro). They are cheap and Americans love them. How many Camaros do you see anywhere else besides US?

The ATS styling is probably worse than the Camaro. Probably why sales were down 22% from '13 to '14. You couldn't give me one of those things. Respect it's performance (the V version) but there is nothing remotely appealing about that car.

Go buy your GM junk. I'll stick to other brands.

I don't struggle with anything. Yeah I'M "ok" with driving a car with piss poor visibility as my daily driver. I bought the Z4 Coupe in December 2014 with 23,000 miles on it. It now has 41,000 miles on it (and it was off the road from April to mid-June). So some people are capable, some aren't I guess. And until the 2016 model year, Ford never sold the Mustang outside of North America; the 2016 MY Mustang was designed and intended to be sold in Europe. I do not think GM has ever officially sold the Camaro outside North America. So if you are trying to imply that the Mustang and Camaro don't sell well in Europe, it's because they've never been offered for sale in Europe...

My "hundreds of thousands" number came from an article I read on the '16 Camaro that predicted 130,000 sales for the model year 2016 Camaro (I think it was Car & Driver, I'll have to find the source). However, below are sales data for 2015 for the Camaro and 4-Series June - November 2015. These data are sourced from the Good Car Bad Car website for both vehicles; I'm not sure who Good Car Bad Car is or where they get their data, but generally current year sales data for automobiles is something you have to pay to get from industry sources. So I did some simple statistics since the BMW sales data wasn't available for Jan - May 2015, and December is not yet complete. So for what its worth, the Camaro outsells the 4-Series about 2:1 (really 1.7:1). And the Camaro sales are mostly for the 5th Gen car, not the 2016 MY. Just for shits and grins.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

South Louisiana now. The offer still stands...I know that you can stand the humidity being in Maryland.

Good luck on the clutch!

Once the hips are replaced I will be able to resume that kind of work on cars again. In the meanwhile I will live vicariously through your experience!

Cheers-mk

Just an update. The last bolt came out easily in 10 minutes (LOL after a good nights sleep on it), I just had to tilt the engine a bit farther back. Anyway, trans is out, clutch and flywheel off. The rear main seal is tight (no leaks). I intended on replacing it, but the old adage is "if it's not leaking leave it be". 292K on the seal... decisions decisions...

Insanity once again

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just an update. The last bolt came out easily in 10 minutes (LOL after a good nights sleep on it), I just had to tilt the engine a bit farther back. Anyway, trans is out, clutch and flywheel off. The rear main seal is tight (no leaks). I intended on replacing it, but the old adage is "if it's not leaking leave it be". 292K on the seal... decisions decisions...

Insanity once again

Fantastic job!
292K on the seal but not leaking? I say throw caution to the wind and replace it!!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Fantastic job!
292K on the seal but not leaking? I say throw caution to the wind and replace it!!

Well the issue is this. There are special tools required to remove and replace the seal. One tool attaches to the seal with screws then pulls the seal out using the crankshaft end as leverage. The installing tool attaches to the crankshaft and presses the new seal in. On top of that, there is a liquid sealing procedure and material that "caulks" the outside of the seal to the engine block (I bought the "caulk" kit from BMW, so I have it). The special tools are not available anywhere I've looked. I've tentatively assembled some alternative special tools of my own, but it's a "once you go in and start, you gotta go all the way" kind of thing. I showed pictures of the seal to my professional mechanic friend in the next town over from me (he does my alignments and such). He said to leave it alone. Other pro's I've spoken with say the same, if the seal is good then leave it alone. There is 50/50 a chance that the new seal will not seat correctly and leak, so the logic is, if the current seal is not leaking, then leave it alone.

If the removal and installation were simple, then I replace it. The way I see it, if the seal starts to leak, then I'll have to go in and replace it. If I replace the seal now, there is a 50% chance it may leak and I'll need to go back in anyway. Plus the Wife is bitching I'm spending too much time in the garage as it is. (She never says that when I work on her Z3 however... )

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well the issue is this. There are special tools required to remove and replace the seal. One tool attaches to the seal with screws then pulls the seal out using the crankshaft end as leverage. The installing tool attaches to the crankshaft and presses the new seal in. On top of that, there is a liquid sealing procedure and material that "caulks" the outside of the seal to the engine block (I bought the "caulk" kit from BMW, so I have it). The special tools are not available anywhere I've looked. I've tentatively assembled some alternative special tools of my own, but it's a "once you go in and start, you gotta go all the way" kind of thing. I showed pictures of the seal to my professional mechanic friend in the next town over from me (he does my alignments and such). He said to leave it alone. Other pro's I've spoken with say the same, if the seal is good then leave it alone. There is 50/50 a chance that the new seal will not seat correctly and leak, so the logic is, if the current seal is not leaking, then leave it alone.

If the removal and installation were simple, then I replace it. The way I see it, if the seal starts to leak, then I'll have to go in and replace it. If I replace the seal now, there is a 50% chance it may leak and I'll need to go back in anyway. Plus the Wife is bitching I'm spending too much time in the garage as it is. (She never says that when I work on her Z3 however... )

Now I have greater understanding.

Special tools...the bane of my existence! Keep the seal in place. The odds are in your favor when all of the additional data is considered!

Just my .02!!

Cheers-mk

[PoorLurker]

Did Chevy mess up when designing the side mirrors and rear view mirrors on the Camaro?

I do not see why this is such a huge issue? Adjust the mirrors so that when the cars behind you leave your view, they show up in the side mirrors. Then, when they leave the side mirrors, they should be in your peripheral with a slight rotation of your head.



I could never seen myself driving a Camaro. The appearance, though awkward, has definitely grown on me, I just can't see myself owning one. When I watched the video of the Z28 hitting 160mph at the 'ring, I was impressed and thought "that's a lot of performance for something in that price range" but I'd rather drive a slower car that makes me feel warmer inside.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I don't struggle with anything. Yeah I'M "ok" with driving a car with piss poor visibility as my daily driver. I bought the Z4 Coupe in December 2014 with 23,000 miles on it. It now has 41,000 miles on it (and it was off the road from April to mid-June). So some people are capable, some aren't I guess. And until the 2016 model year, Ford never sold the Mustang outside of North America; the 2016 MY Mustang was designed and intended to be sold in Europe. I do not think GM has ever officially sold the Camaro outside North America. So if you are trying to imply that the Mustang and Camaro don't sell well in Europe, it's because they've never been offered for sale in Europe...

My "hundreds of thousands" number came from an article I read on the '16 Camaro that predicted 130,000 sales for the model year 2016 Camaro (I think it was Car & Driver, I'll have to find the source). However, below are sales data for 2015 for the Camaro and 4-Series June - November 2015. These data are sourced from the Good Car Bad Car website for both vehicles; I'm not sure who Good Car Bad Car is or where they get their data, but generally current year sales data for automobiles is something you have to pay to get from industry sources. So I did some simple statistics since the BMW sales data wasn't available for Jan - May 2015, and December is not yet complete. So for what its worth, the Camaro outsells the 4-Series about 2:1 (really 1.7:1). And the Camaro sales are mostly for the 5th Gen car, not the 2016 MY. Just for shits and grins.

My comment about Camaro sales outside of the US was mentioned for a reason. I know they don't sell them outside of US and Canada. Why? because they wouldn't sell for shit in other countries.

My Camaro sales data is directly from GM and 4 series data directly from BMW.

Since when does "hundreds of thousands" mean 130K? Even 130K is an absolute joke. You can honestly say that you think Camaro sales are going to increase 46% in 2016 over their highest point ever? Come on man. That is ludicrous.

BMW 4 series sales are 119,508 worldwide. The car is sold worldwide because it appeals to a worldwide audience. You can't just use US sales figures. That is just being disingenuous.

Just look at your source and compare 4 series sales in Canada to Camaro sales. 4 series sales bests the Camaro by 20%. That should tell you something about appeal.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by PoorLurker

Did Chevy mess up when designing the side mirrors and rear view mirrors on the Camaro?

I do not see why this is such a huge issue? Adjust the mirrors so that when the cars behind you leave your view, they show up in the side mirrors. Then, when they leave the side mirrors, they should be in your peripheral with a slight rotation of your head.



I could never seen myself driving a Camaro. The appearance, though awkward, has definitely grown on me, I just can't see myself owning one. When I watched the video of the Z28 hitting 160mph at the 'ring, I was impressed and thought "that's a lot of performance for something in that price range" but I'd rather drive a slower car that makes me feel warmer inside.

I don't have to worry about the issue as I will never own one or rent another one again. I mentioned the fact of poor visibility as one of many reasons why I personally wouldn't own one. But also pointed it out because many many people that like the car (and even those that own one) complained vehemently about the issue. See the Google link that I provided and look at the bitching about it on the CAMARO FORUM itself......among many other forums/websites.

I'm done with the topic.

[PoorLurker]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

I don't have to worry about the issue as I will never own one or rent another one again. I mentioned the fact of poor visibility as one of many reasons why I personally wouldn't own one. But also pointed it out because many many people that like the car (and even those that own one) complained vehemently about the issue. See the Google link that I provided and look at the bitching about it on the CAMARO FORUM itself......among many other forums/websites.

I'm done with the topic.

This car even has poor front visibility, but I don't mind. :P


Cars are like

Some people want hot, some cold, some in the middle. Some want salt, some want pepper, some want sesame oil.

In regards to why people buy and do not buy cars, lack of visibility for you is like some people who won't buy certain cars because a lack of cup holders or lack of X feature. Ultimately, you're the one driving is so I respect that. I wouldn't own one purely for materialistic and superficial reasonings, haha.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

You really struggle with this don't you? So you would be "ok" daily driving a car with piss poor visibility? You would "tolerate" that? Good for you. I wouldn't for a daily driver. A sports car is a different story and is obvioulsy not driven every day. Thus, you make "sacrficies" (for lack of a better term) like lack of utility, comfort, visibility et al. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend.

I've already pointed out the main reasons why I'd never buy this car (see cartoonish design, cheap ass materials used, et al). Do I despise GM? Yep, I sure as hell do. Having said that, could I have swallowed my pride and bought a C7 Vette if the ass end didn't look like the abortion that it is? Yes.

Hundreds of thousands of Camaros? ummmm, they sell bewtween 80-90K per year. BMW 4 series sales were 119K. Nice try though. Why does GM even sell that many Camaros? because they are cheap. Same thing goes for the Mustang (which I would buy 1,000 times before a Camaro). They are cheap and Americans love them. How many Camaros do you see anywhere else besides US?

The ATS styling is probably worse than the Camaro. Probably why sales were down 22% from '13 to '14. You couldn't give me one of those things. Respect it's performance (the V version) but there is nothing remotely appealing about that car.

Go buy your GM junk. I'll stick to other brands.

Whats up with a comparing a sports car to a luxury car anyways? Why not compare a M4 to the Camaro? Even then, you and others will say the M4 interior is better when the Camaro easily beats or is on par with the handling/power. Same old thing now.

People like you will go to the, well my car has a better interior! Well good for you! It should see how much more it costs. BMW is sold worldwide because it is a worldwide product that can be easily moved around in Europe. You know, since its mainly produced there. I feel as the interior of BMWs are all the same. Plastic everywhere with bits of leather here and there. I honestly feel like my 06 GTO interior was better.

The 5th gen Camaro interior is terrible. Only reason why I didn't get one was because of that, the feeling of a long front end, terrible trunk access and stupid placement of certain things. I've yet to sit in a 6th gen Camaro, so I'll see how that feels.

And don't make it seem like GM isn't the only company that isn't selling vehicles worldwide. BMW doesn't sell all its vehicles worldwide nor Audi nor Ford nor Merc and so on. How many of the beloved GTS vehicles have been sold in the US?

If I had to choose, I'd take the new Camaro. Why? Because its my choice and I'll happily enjoy a true drivers car. Not like how BMW is anymore.

GM junk? How many people run to the dealers to unload their almost out of warranty BMWs compared to how many people run to the dealers to unload their almost out of warranty GM products? Or complain about how much it is to get a single headlight replaced out of warranty? Simple is always better. Thats why things last longer and can be fixed a lot easier and cheaper.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

My comment about Camaro sales outside of the US was mentioned for a reason. I know they don't sell them outside of US and Canada. Why? because they wouldn't sell for shit in other countries.

My Camaro sales data is directly from GM and 4 series data directly from BMW.

Since when does "hundreds of thousands" mean 130K? Even 130K is an absolute joke. You can honestly say that you think Camaro sales are going to increase 46% in 2016 over their highest point ever? Come on man. That is ludicrous.

BMW 4 series sales are 119,508 worldwide. The car is sold worldwide because it appeals to a worldwide audience. You can't just use US sales figures. That is just being disingenuous.

Just look at your source and compare 4 series sales in Canada to Camaro sales. 4 series sales bests the Camaro by 20%. That should tell you something about appeal.

Really? Can't use sales only in the US? Let's see GM is one of the largest automakers in the world, and one of the largest in Europe (sells more cars than BMW). It doesn't need to sell the Camaro in Europe because it has other cars in the European market. Hummm... let's go back to the 318ti. Sales flop in the US. BMW doesn't sell any hatchbacks in the US. Why? No market. BMW dropped the 3 and 5-series wagons, why? No market. What did BMW sell in place of them? Yeah, SUVs. BMW sells it's cars all over the world because it is a small automaker and can't afford to develop and manufacture different models for different markets. Not selling the Camaro in Europe is a stupid argument, so we'll stick with US sales since we are talking about an American market vehicle. The Camaro outsells the 4-Series almost 2 to 1 in the US. Facts are facts. Sorry.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Now I have greater understanding.

Special tools...the bane of my existence! Keep the seal in place. The odds are in your favor when all of the additional data is considered!

Just my .02!!

Cheers-mk

Thanks. I think it is the right decision.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Whats up with a comparing a sports car to a luxury car anyways? Why not compare a M4 to the Camaro? Even then, you and others will say the M4 interior is better when the Camaro easily beats or is on par with the handling/power. Same old thing now.

People like you will go to the, well my car has a better interior! Well good for you! It should see how much more it costs. BMW is sold worldwide because it is a worldwide product that can be easily moved around in Europe. You know, since its mainly produced there. I feel as the interior of BMWs are all the same. Plastic everywhere with bits of leather here and there. I honestly feel like my 06 GTO interior was better.

The 5th gen Camaro interior is terrible. Only reason why I didn't get one was because of that, the feeling of a long front end, terrible trunk access and stupid placement of certain things. I've yet to sit in a 6th gen Camaro, so I'll see how that feels.

And don't make it seem like GM isn't the only company that isn't selling vehicles worldwide. BMW doesn't sell all its vehicles worldwide nor Audi nor Ford nor Merc and so on. How many of the beloved GTS vehicles have been sold in the US?

If I had to choose, I'd take the new Camaro. Why? Because its my choice and I'll happily enjoy a true drivers car. Not like how BMW is anymore.

GM junk? How many people run to the dealers to unload their almost out of warranty BMWs compared to how many people run to the dealers to unload their almost out of warranty GM products? Or complain about how much it is to get a single headlight replaced out of warranty? Simple is always better. Thats why things last longer and can be fixed a lot easier and cheaper.

I didn't start the thread. If you had any reading comprehension ability, you'd see the sports car analogy came in during the discussion about visibility. I'll compare the M4 all day long with the Camaro if you so desire. Handling, feel, looks, braking, build quality, etc. all fall the way of the M4. And it should given the difference in price points. I am fortunate enough to not have to worry about settling for a Camaro or Mustang over the likes of an M4, C63, RS5, etc.

I can't stand the styling of GM cars.....I wouldn't care if they had a GT type car that competed with the M4 that ran 0-100 in 5 seconds or the Ring in 7:00 flat....I simply wouldn't have any interest in buying their product. It's chincy and gaudy looking.

Sorry I stopped reading after the GTO comment

your GTO or my M4..........hmmm, which is better

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Really? Can't use sales only in the US? Let's see GM is one of the largest automakers in the world, and one of the largest in Europe (sells more cars than BMW). It doesn't need to sell the Camaro in Europe because it has other cars in the European market. Hummm... let's go back to the 318ti. Sales flop in the US. BMW doesn't sell any hatchbacks in the US. Why? No market. BMW dropped the 3 and 5-series wagons, why? No market. What did BMW sell in place of them? Yeah, SUVs. BMW sells it's cars all over the world because it is a small automaker and can't afford to develop and manufacture different models for different markets. Not selling the Camaro in Europe is a stupid argument, so we'll stick with US sales since we are talking about an American market vehicle. The Camaro outsells the 4-Series almost 2 to 1 in the US. Facts are facts. Sorry.

What other car does GM sell in the European market that is like the Camaro?

Just answer the question --- of all the vehicles that they (GM and BMW) have manufactured has Chevy sold more Camaros or has BMW sold more 4 series?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

What other car does GM sell in the European market that is like the Camaro?

Just answer the question --- of all the vehicles that they (GM and BMW) have manufactured has Chevy sold more Camaros or has BMW sold more 4 series?

GM has sold more Camaros.