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View Poll Results: Which would you rather have at your place of work
All weapons are banned - no one has any 30 29.70%
Private security unarmed - non lethal only 4 3.96%
Private security armed - firearms 20 19.80%
weapons allowed by all employees (cannot say who gets them or does not get them) 11 10.89%
weapons allowed by employees with certification class 36 35.64%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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      08-28-2015, 06:28 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowbudgethero View Post
most of these assumptions are false , it was on mythbusters


people don't drop what they are doing when shot in a minor area, most likely they could continue their assault temporarily even if lethally shot center mass

if someone unarmed is stronger than you within 20ft you're going to be screwed unless you're armed

a more reasonable approach would be taser, and even then you have 1 shot and it has to pierce though clothing and its effect is temporary
Interesting video. I think it certainly points to the plausibility of 20 feet being too close. I'm certain it speaks to 20 feet being too close for an untrained/unprepared person. The lack of combat training is one of the points I raised with regard to citizen uses of guns.

What is or isn't too close or not, however, isn't the key point I've been making, even though I'll readily agree there there can come a point in which the the "fight" shifts from one in which either or both parties have options to neither having any but one.

That said, re: the "need to defend oneself" scenarios, all of them are nonetheless situations that happen for 3% of the population, assuming all of those people have these events occur at such close proximity. What happens to 3% of a population of 310M+ people can in no way logically militate for 100M people having guns "just in case." Gun advocates like to shift the discussion to "rates of criminal activity."

Well, criminal activity is deplorable, and I'd like to see less of it, but what I have been writing about is "rates of deaths from guns." I have not advocated for an outright ban on guns, largely because I have no interest in arguing over the language and Founders' intent re: the 2nd Amendment. All the same, while I am aware that non-homicide crime is lower when folks own guns, I also know that homicides are more when folks own guns. (http://www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun...-vs-gun-facts/)

Those two realities present a dilemma and force me to ask myself, "Do I seek first to lower general crime or do I seek first to save lives?" Insofar as most non-homicidal crime is about property, I'm going to argue for preserving the lives of living, walking, talking, breathing human beings.

Interestingly, Mythbusters didn't show the effectiveness of simply fleeing. Of course, that wasn't the point of the test, so I understand why they didn't try that. Another tactic they didn't explore (again because it wasn't within the scope of the test) is the idea of using the gun itself to aid in parrying the knife attack.

Red:
You are the first person who has even mentioned a tazer. I appreciate and applaud that you've done so. Throughout the discussion, I thought, "Why has not one gun advocate even ventured the remotest possibility of using something like a tazer?" That you mentioned it at least suggests that you recognize there are effective alternatives to lethal force.

That's a very different stance from that most gun advocates take. Overwhelmingly, gun advocates seem focused not so much on self defense, but on whether they can use a gun, rather than anything else, to that end.

A tazer does need to penetrate clothing, but then when was the last time you wore two solid inches of clothing? (http://www.streetdirectory.com/trave..._c2_taser.html) Are tazers beatable? Yes they are, but then so are bullets. Body armor may render either ineffective, but maybe it won't either? (http://forums.officer.com/t191331/#post3397725)

Other:
Let me offer a parting thought about just how childishly ridiculous is this "just in case" argument for why people need to have a lethal force option, namely guns, for self defense.

Logical Perspective:

Knowing that there is a 3% chance of one's being the victim of violent crime, one must then deem that 3% is "bad enough" odds to take steps to ensure one comes out the survivor in a violent situation. So for the sake of argument, I'll here say "fair enough."

In light of 3% being the most risk one can assume, what other things have a 3% risk of one's suffering (not necessarily dying because the homicide risk given one's being a U.S. citizen/resident, not violent non-homicidal crime victimization risk, is 0.2% -- source cited in an earlier post, but here's another: http://discovertheodds.com/what-are-...eing-murdered/) a "loss" (most likely property since that's what at issue in most crimes)?
  • ~15% -- Odds that a 6.7 magnitude (think Northridge 1994 -- http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/topics/mag_vs_int.php) quake will hit San Francisco or Los Angles in the next 6.3 years. (http://www.scec.org/ucerf/). Do we see people en masse fleeing (or preparing to) the West Coast? No.
  • 0.2% -- Odds of dying of heart disease (http://discovertheodds.com/what-are-...eing-murdered/)

    What activities contribute to a greater risk for having a heart attack? And are there major declines in the extent to which Americans do most of them? No. Many individuals might, but as a nation of people, no.
    Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_842784.html
    • Not getting enough sleep
    • Stressing out
    • Over consuming alcohol
    • Overeating
    • Eating salty snacks
    • Eating empty calories
    • Watching TV
  • ~16% -- The odds of being poor in America. (http://discovertheodds.com/odds-of-b...ty-in-america/) I don't have the first idea if people worry about being poor, much less what effective steps they take to make sure they aren't. I know what I do and what a handful of people do.
  • 1.3% and 1.4% -- Odds of dying in a transportation or non-transportation accident within the next year. Those odds are seven times higher than the odds of being murdered. (http://www.funny2.com/odds.htm) Just as makes sense, people get in cars, planes, trains, boats, buses, etc. with nary a concern.
  • 33% -- Odds that a person between 18 and 29 does not read a newspaper regularly. This may be most disconcerting thing I've discovered.
  • 1 in 12,500 -- Dying in an asteroid apocalypse. That's quite a bit lower than the odds of being murdered.
  • 2% -- The odds of an American's being bitten by a dog. Yet what do most folks do when they see a dog? They run up and pet it. so rather than keeping the risk low by leaving the bitch alone, they all but invite greater risk. And for what? To pet someone else's damn dog? Admittedly, it's less risk than that of being a violent crime victim, but not much less. (I realize the dog example isn't the best. I listed it because I thought it interesting more than anything else.)
  • 4.5% -- The odds of a New Yorker getting shat on by a bird. Do people generally carry an umbrella during the day when birds mostly fly around? No.
So based on the likelihood of one's experiencing a given event, that is based on something rational, you'd think that people would be more concerned and take decisive action to ward against the things that are more likely to happen, "just in case."

One must ask, why are we concerned irrationally about statistically unlikely events? (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...r-honking-horn)

On Principle Pespective:
I addressed this point earlier. There is nothing consistent about a decision/position adoption set of principles that makes the following set of arguments:
  • Allow guns to anyone who wants them.
    Disallow nuclear weapons to selected nations.
  • Life is important and must be protected at all costs before the life has even begun and the person can be said to have been born.
    F*ck with me and I'm gong to kill you.
Now when I think about each pair of principles, all I see is contradictions and "knee jerk" thinking/approaches. If someone were to present a rational basis for their gun-advocacy position, I'd pay attention. I might even agree with it. But so far, nobody has offered anything to address my one point, yes, one friggin' point -- that the "just in case" argument does not hold water (http://www.seekfind.net/Just_In_Case...l#.VeDtm5f9w-I) -- and it never can or will.

"Just in case" is a logical fallacy no matter from what angle one approaches it. One can do things "just in case," in at the very least, anyone with any sense would at least admit the logical invalidity of their doing them "just in case," and they would admit that their actions are purely based on emotional driver, not based on anything that makes logical sense.

All the best.
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      08-28-2015, 06:33 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw1racer View Post
I've never used a gun to cut a steak or spread butter on toast... And I've never used a gun to skewer food for grilling.

Maybe not but i am sure you could use this.
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      08-28-2015, 06:59 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by essdb1 View Post
You my friend live in a dream world. God forbid (and i hope it never does) if any of the situations happen to you please report back and let us know what happened, if you are still alive. You would open yourself up to massive civil liability if you were ever found to be trying to "wound" someone.
And here we have yet another individual who's sole retort is to assail me rather than the ideas I've put forth. I'm not requiring you to like my ideas, but if you don't, then find the logical flaw in them and offer the corresponding rebuttal.

Attacking me and calling me quixotic does nothing to tear down my ideas. All it does is show you have zip, zilch and zero to say that's logically sound and supportive of your own position.

Hell, unlike me, you haven't (AFAIK) posted something in here that clearly states what your position is. I was asked what my position is and I quite comprehensively laid it out, along with a rough policy proposal. And what came back? A slew of stones aimed at me, not my ideas, and from only one person the slightest hint of an alternative proposal, and from nobody a rationally driven rebuttal.

At the most, you've left it for us to infer what it is. Perhaps so you can later say, "Oh, no. That's not what I meant/said?" I don't know....

We both know damn well the folly and puerility in "attacking the messenger" and hiding behind words unspoken. That's what children do. As I've said often. If one can only respond to me as an adolescent would, then don't. I'm quite content to engage with someone, perhaps it's just one person and that's fine, who can and will go toe-to-toe with me on points of substance. But when it comes to emotional debate, the name calling and child's play. I don't have any interest in it. I don't know how any adult can, but I've seen Fox News and MSNBC, so I know clearly some do.

(And no, it's not everyone at Fox. Chris Wallace is outstandingly good. Rachel Maddow is brilliant, but too "on the attack." Like me, he's not into the BS platitudes and party talking points. And frankly, when it comes to strict news, Fox is quite good. Ditto MSNBC with Steve Kornacki. There's just not enough "straight news," from either network, which is really a damn shame because both have the potential to be the kind of news organization that gave us Uncle Walter and Edward R. Murrow.)

All the best.
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      08-28-2015, 07:02 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killramos View Post
I think we should start a new poll.

How many people would be in favour of a company banning people from keeping cars with more than 100HP in their parkade?

Fast cars kill.
I'm writing this in the hope that you are just joking, and that you don't actually think the above as a pithy but germane retort.

Comments like yours above are funny, I laughed at it, but the subject is not. Guns and killing people with them, people losing loved ones to gun shot wounds, is not a joking matter.

All the best.
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      08-28-2015, 07:08 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C5driver View Post
Knives were. How about pointy sticks?
Not many mass murders with pointy sticks or knives...
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      08-28-2015, 07:19 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
And here we have yet another individual who's sole retort is to assail me rather than the ideas I've put forth. I'm not requiring you to like my ideas, but if you don't, then find the logical flaw in them and offer the corresponding rebuttal.

Attacking me and calling me quixotic does nothing to tear down my ideas. All it does is show you have zip, zilch and zero to say that's logically sound and supportive of your own position.

Hell, unlike me, you haven't (AFAIK) posted something in here that clearly states what your position is. I was asked what my position is and I quite comprehensively laid it out, along with a rough policy proposal. And what came back? A slew of stones aimed at me, not my ideas, and from only one person the slightest hint of an alternative proposal, and from nobody a rationally driven rebuttal.

At the most, you've left it for us to infer what it is. Perhaps so you can later say, "Oh, no. That's not what I meant/said?" I don't know....

We both know damn well the folly and puerility in "attacking the messenger" and hiding behind words unspoken. That's what children do. As I've said often. If one can only respond to me as an adolescent would, then don't. I'm quite content to engage with someone, perhaps it's just one person and that's fine, who can and will go toe-to-toe with me on points of substance. But when it comes to emotional debate, the name calling and child's play. I don't have any interest in it. I don't know how any adult can, but I've seen Fox News and MSNBC, so I know clearly some do.

(And no, it's not everyone at Fox. Chris Wallace is outstandingly good. Rachel Maddow is brilliant, but too "on the attack." Like me, he's not into the BS platitudes and party talking points. And frankly, when it comes to strict news, Fox is quite good. Ditto MSNBC with Steve Kornacki. There's just not enough "straight news," from either network, which is really a damn shame because both have the potential to be the kind of news organization that gave us Uncle Walter and Edward R. Murrow.)

All the best.
It is you who is assailing me. Some of us do not feel we have to insult other member's intelligence by writing a long, mind numbing retort. I am sure that at least 90% of people can understand exactly what i was saying. Some of us actually have lives and families and can not spend all day BS'ing with people like you that only wish to "engage" others. Why don't you go join a boxing or martial arts club and take some of that pent-up up anger out. Are you even able to lawfully own a firearm.
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      08-28-2015, 07:26 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
Not many mass murders with pointy sticks or knives...
Not lately, although there have been some pretty horrific attacks in China and Japan (IIRC) in the last few years with knives. Pointy sticks...probably have to go back a few millenia, but human nature being what it is, a small unbalanced segment will find the most efficient killing method available to them, if not by guns, then by their bare hands. The worst serial murderers used a variety of weapons, but usually just with their hands.

Getting rid of guns solves nothing.
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      08-28-2015, 07:32 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C5driver View Post
Not lately, although there have been some pretty horrific attacks in China and Japan (IIRC) in the last few years with knives. Pointy sticks...probably have to go back a few millenia, but human nature being what it is, a small unbalanced segment will find the most efficient killing method available to them, if not by guns, then by their bare hands. The worst serial murderers used a variety of weapons, but usually just with their hands.

Getting rid of guns solves nothing.
Serial killing and mass murder are two different things. In general when a madman attacks with a knife, the first victim is mostly wounded or in some cases murdered... then the remaining possible victims would generally be able to constrain the assailant.

I don't want to keep going with you because you'll probably answer me with something weak again...
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      08-28-2015, 07:35 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
Serial killing and mass murder are two different things. In general when a madman attacks with a knife, the first victim is mostly wounded or in some cases murdered... then the remaining possible victims would generally be able to constrain the assailant.

I don't want to keep going with you because you'll probably answer me with something weak again...
Sounds good. Have yourself a great weekend.
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      08-28-2015, 07:37 PM   #76
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same to you.
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      08-28-2015, 08:20 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
Not many mass murders with pointy sticks or knives...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ders-per-week/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7508418.stm

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...in-west-china/

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/knifecrime

Just because you dont know about it, doesnt mean it didnt happen.
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      08-28-2015, 08:22 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
Serial killing and mass murder are two different things. In general when a madman attacks with a knife, the first victim is mostly wounded or in some cases murdered... then the remaining possible victims would generally be able to constrain the assailant.
Please show your references to prove this... or at least a few stories where just one person was slashed and then others who were unarmed rushed to his savior and defeated the attacker.
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      08-28-2015, 08:28 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
then find the logical flaw in them and offer the corresponding rebuttal.
I asked you for your idea, explained why it wouldnt work, and told you issue isnt the guns, but the people behind them. Ive been in federal law enforcement for over 5 years now, unfortunately dissecting your arguments about various alternative methods doesnt fix the problem.
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      08-28-2015, 08:36 PM   #80
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Wow... Knife stabbings that injure are not mass murders like you get in the US.

2 first links talk about knife murders but not mass murders. Ok 2nd link has a story of 7 died at the hands of one double edged knife holding deranged guy. Well there you go. Guns for everyone because of these rare events.

3rd link talks about a mob of people with knives. In this case 27 deaths but this must be very rare as most mass murders in the States are done by one or two people.

4th link... no one died


Thanks for proving my point.


6 knife murders per week in the UK, I wonder how that compares to the number of gun murders in the US per week...

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      08-28-2015, 08:38 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FenixMike View Post
Please show your references to prove this... or at least a few stories where just one person was slashed and then others who were unarmed rushed to his savior and defeated the attacker.
See your above links. You did it for me.

For every knife related mass murder done by one or two lunatics, I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of mass murders done using firearms

Last edited by Tonybest; 08-28-2015 at 08:45 PM..
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      08-28-2015, 09:32 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
Not many mass murders with pointy sticks or knives...
Since you somehow side tracked from your own argument, im going to quote you again. No one said anything about more knives than guns. Please read what you posted, I linked to many killings with knives.
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      08-28-2015, 09:34 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
See your above links. You did it for me.

For every knife related mass murder done by one or two lunatics, I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of mass murders done using firearms
Again, side stepping your original argument. Knives kill people. If you want to get technical, razor blades can kill, see 9/11 and the WTC. A gun is nothing more than a tool, when removed from inventory, a killer will find something else.
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      08-28-2015, 09:42 PM   #84
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Yes but not as easily or with such results. Don't be obtuse.
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      08-28-2015, 09:55 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Yes but not as easily or with such results. Don't be obtuse.
You would not say that if you were the one being stabbed or slashed to death.
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      08-28-2015, 10:02 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
Yes but not as easily or with such results. Don't be obtuse.
I would LOVE to post some great pictures of stabbings and slashings on here... ive seen my share at work. Did you know a knife goes through body armor like butter? Most main arteries will drain you of blood in less than 1 minute, and small cuts can render you defenseless... its also a silent killer meaning those around you wont be warned. A knife is a terrible way to go, much harder to fix than a bullet wound, and much faster to bleed out. You might be surprised at the survival rate from gunshots or even multiple gunshots...
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      08-28-2015, 10:04 PM   #87
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What a waste of time. Good night
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      08-28-2015, 10:08 PM   #88
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The thing a gun does for people is provide some separation to allow them to be slightly removed. With a hammer, rock, knife, chainsaw or fence post you have to get in close and do the work. Even crazy people don't often like that. It is interesting the points about multiple gunshots often living. I've seen it go both ways.
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