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      07-30-2019, 02:16 PM   #2179
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      07-30-2019, 03:21 PM   #2180
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I had some what of a similar situation happen to me. Not that any utilities were being stolen.

I went out to my vacation home one weekend. I get there after a 2.5 or so hour drive. It's some what late as I pull up to my house. At first, I thought I was so tired I pulled up to the wrong house. I then realized someone parked in my driveway blocking access to my garage. I get out of my car. Look around to see if maybe the owner of the car would happen to come back for their car. After a few minutes and pondering if I should just call a tow truck, a guy comes out of the house directly across from me on the other side of the street. He's walking a dog. I go to him and ask if he knew who owned that car. He goes...oh it's mine.

He gets the keys goes over and backs the car out of my driveway. In the process of doing this, the jerk is tossing attitude around as if I was the problem in inconveniencing him. No apology. No nothing.

I talk to some other neighbors and apparently he's done it at least once before when I wasn't around due to them having guests over and using my driveway as over flow parking. Had he apologized and told me about the parking situation, I wouldn't have mind and would have told him to exchange numbers to ask me next time if it was ok for them to use my driveway. Nope. The ass felt entitled to use my driveway.

Until I get some security cameras set up on that house, I told the neighbors I'm friendly with to let me know if this happens again. I won't hesitate to call a tow truck now.
Had a similar thing happen to a friend. Turned out a house was robbed nearby and the neighbor parked their extra car in the driveway to make it look like someone was home. They let them park there whenever the owners were gone, which was often. Maybe they were lying and just wanted a spot, lol. But there was plenty of parking on their own property so I don't think so.
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      07-31-2019, 07:08 AM   #2181
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Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
The strange thing is, in this locale (Boston area), those driving the models S and 3, generally, appear to be aged 60s+. I see a range of ages driving other makes and models of EVs, but not typically the Tesla sedans. That might be due to cost, or plenty of other factors not related to general appeal.
There's obviously the affordability factor. Older people on average can afford more expensive cars than recent college graduates. S is a baby boomer car in that regard and also in its features and behavior. 3 is targeted at a much younger population, but many of the people who could afford a 3 just don't realize it. One of my daughters just happens to have most of her friends from families with lower incomes than ours, and they all see my 3 as an unattainable status symbol - while their parents drive $30K SUVs that easily burn $300/mo in gas, which means their 5yr TCO is right on par with my 3 LR DM. So Tesla, with its stubborn refusal to advertise, basically makes the ability to properly budget one's money a prerequisite, and ends up with older better educated customer base.
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One thing is certain, those driving Tesla model S and 3 around here don't appear to do so for their performance potential. I rarely even see them in the passing lane. These are just casual observations though.
Seems like you don't drive where and when I do.
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I also disagree with your statement. People change makes and models of car all the time. In fact, it's rare that someone stays solely with any one make of car exclusively, let alone model.
ICE -> EV is a bigger jump psychologically than just changing a brand.
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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
You seem to get on a wad if someone criticizes your beloved Model 3.
No, you were just too funny with your "the lid refused to close" for me not to respond. You're supposed to push it lightly into place, the car even tells you with a display warning not to hit it hard if you try.
Quote:
And most millennials and younger generations are not that interested in car ownership and particularly expensive vehicles be it Tesla or BMW. Younger generations are more interested in experiences (Travel) than expensive high ticket items. There will be exceptions of course, but by far and large cars are heading the way of full automation (Transportation pods) and those few interested in having a car of their own will opt for a subscription model.
Even if they won't own their cars outright - their preferences have already been established.
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And as much you wish for it, ICE is not going anywhere for decades at least not until EV and other forms of alternate propulsion become viable and usable to vast swaths of the population. EVs are likely great urban vehicles but still either out of reach or impractical to a large segment of the population. Battery technology, ultra fast recharging capability and production costs are just not there yet.
In 10 years, the prevalence of ICE cars in a given country or area will be seen as an evidence of its lagging economy.
ICE to EV is a big jump but that wasn't the point you were originally trying to make. You said that the younger generation is already bought and sold on EVs, so when they become an established customer base, they will likely continue buying EVs (additionally, your context suggested Tesla more so than any EV).

We already agreed that the tesla customer base is, on average, a bit older. They aren't comprised of recent college grads. We also agreed on why that is (lack of marketing, perceived cost etc). These points suggest that the younger generation isn't necessarily already hooked on tesla. Maybe if tesla did a better job of directly marketing their products toward younger people, this could change.

While going from ICE to EV is a leap, going from EV to ICE, or hybrid powered cars, won't be much of a leap for younger generations who aren't yet set on EV products (as we established). Also consider that eventually the competition will catch up to tesla, at which point jumping brands won't be much of a leap among those shopping for an EV.
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      07-31-2019, 10:27 AM   #2182
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After stepping out of a Tesla Model 3, any current BMW interior would feel sublime. I drove a Tesla Model S for a weekend when I had my F82; coming back to my F82, it felt sublime. In addition to the quality feel; the seats, the steering, the ergonomics immediately felt way better than Tesla Model S P90D. G30 would feel even more 'sublime'.
G30 interior is the best in class, way ahead of any Tesla. Even door bins are super soft plastic, everything feels solid, and they fit perfectly.

Also, BMW interiors look like they're designed by people who likes driving. Tesla interiors look like they are designed for people who wants to go on autopilot while jiggling with the touch screen .
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      07-31-2019, 11:49 AM   #2183
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2011 design vs 2019 design
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      07-31-2019, 11:52 AM   #2184
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post

I drove a Tesla Model S for a weekend when I had my F82; coming back to my F82, it felt sublime.
F82? From the F3X series? Awful interior quality. Awful.
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      07-31-2019, 12:12 PM   #2185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
ICE to EV is a big jump but that wasn't the point you were originally trying to make. You said that the younger generation is already bought and sold on EVs, so when they become an established customer base, they will likely continue buying EVs (additionally, your context suggested Tesla more so than any EV).

We already agreed that the tesla customer base is, on average, a bit older. They aren't comprised of recent college grads. We also agreed on why that is (lack of marketing, perceived cost etc). These points suggest that the younger generation isn't necessarily already hooked on tesla. Maybe if tesla did a better job of directly marketing their products toward younger people, this could change.

While going from ICE to EV is a leap, going from EV to ICE of hybrid powered cars won't be much of a leap for younger generations who aren't yet set on EV products (as we established). Also consider that eventually the competition will catch up to tesla, at which point jumping brands won't be much of a leap among those shipping for an EV.
Tesla EV tech is years ahead of everyone else's - which is something even the most hardcore TSLAQ people acknowledge, usually by simply never talking about it and focusing instead on Musk's character or all those invented scandals. This advantage is pretty much what Apple had with iPhones when they first came out. Since then, Apple squandered its position, but even now if you look at the market, there are iPhones, and there's everything else. The same way, unless the other manufacturers figure out how to close that 3 year technology gap, in the foreseeable future, people who want to buy an EV, without a preference for a specific brand, will be more likely to choose a Tesla than anything else. And just like with Apple I don't see how that gap can be closed unless Tesla itself stumbles.

As for choosing ICE after setting your sights on EV - please. Oil changes? Visits to gas stations every few days? Not being able to get into a pre-cooled car on a hot day? ICE owners talk about charging on long trips as a deal breaker for the move to EVs. What you don't realize is that for someone who started in the EV world there exist _multiple_ deal breakers for the switch to an ICE vehicle.
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      07-31-2019, 12:49 PM   #2186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
After stepping out of a Tesla Model 3, any current BMW interior would feel sublime.
I get in and out of F80 and TM3 interiors throughout the day, and Tesla's feels modern and intuitive, while BMW's is clunky and dated. I had a G20 for a loaner once, and did not find anything new about its interior vs. F80 (iDrive is a little different, but not less cumbersome).

Basically, iPhone to Blackberry difference of a UI experience upgrade.
There is NOTHING sublime about a Blackberry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
I drove a Tesla Model S for a weekend when I had my F82; coming back to my F82, it felt sublime.
I guess you are a Blackberry kinda guy.
For me, driving F80 after Tesla is like falling into a 90's time warm.

Stupid endless buttons everywhere, 5-steps to get anything done with iDrive that gets done with 1-step in a Tesla, disclaimers everywhere, tiny nav screen, have to hit "cruise" and "M2" buttons before you get car's configuration to your liking EVERY TIME YOU DRIVE, etc, etc.

BMW interior and UI are just plain dated.
Seats are better, though. In the F80, not the G20.


IMHO,
a
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      07-31-2019, 01:10 PM   #2187
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
2011 design vs 2019 design
No matter how much you want to spin it, Tesla interiors are cheap swaths of plastic and more so for the asking prices. The dash in the Model S as well as the door cards sounds hollow when tapped. Perhaps acceptable in a $20K not a $90K+ vehicle.
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      07-31-2019, 01:29 PM   #2188
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
F82? From the F3X series? Awful interior quality. Awful.
Awful? Really?
Do you have any idea what the word quality means?
F82 interior quality is better than any Tesla. This is the equivalent of my F82ís interior. I would take this interior, even E92 or E46 interior to any Tesla. Tesla can maybe match E36 interior in terms of quality, fit& finish. You donít know what fit & finish is, so I understand you I guess.

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      07-31-2019, 01:41 PM   #2189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Awful? Really?
Do you have any idea what the word quality means?
F82 interior quality is better than any Tesla. This is the equivalent of my F82’s interior.
It's all in the eye of the beholder. To me, the photo you posted DIS-proves rather than proves your point. Random, seemingly unrelated shapes and lines everywhere - SO busy.

Are there good materials in there? Sure, but the "design" is so jumbled it's hard to pick them out.

IMHO.

(disclaimer - I've felt this way about BMW interiors for many years, far longer than I've owned the Tesla)
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      07-31-2019, 01:42 PM   #2190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
I get in and out of F80 and TM3 interiors throughout the day, and Tesla's feels modern and intuitive, while BMW's is clunky and dated. I had a G20 for a loaner once, and did not find anything new about its interior vs. F80 (iDrive is a little different, but not less cumbersome).

Basically, iPhone to Blackberry difference of a UI experience upgrade.
There is NOTHING sublime about a Blackberry!




I guess you are a Blackberry kinda guy.
For me, driving F80 after Tesla is like falling into a 90's time warm.

Stupid endless buttons everywhere, 5-steps to get anything done with iDrive that gets done with 1-step in a Tesla, disclaimers everywhere, tiny nav screen, have to hit "cruise" and "M2" buttons before you get car's configuration to your liking EVERY TIME YOU DRIVE, etc, etc.

BMW interior and UI are just plain dated.
Seats are better, though. In the F80, not the G20.


IMHO,
a
Let’s go by your example.

No. I’m not a blackberry or Android kind of guy.
I like simplicity, modern design, and meaningful, carefully selected features & buttons & ports instead of having all of them all the time.

But, iPhone’s success is not about just being simple and modern. It’s about usability, ergonomics. Also, iPhone has very high quality standards, even if you look at it with a Magnifying glass, you can’t find any fault in the fit and finish. Another thing about iPhone is material quality: Everybody else use alum, iPhone X models have stainless steel and more expensive materials and tech overall - like Face ID the mechanism itself costs more than the entirety of most cheap phones. Also, iPhones are extremely reliable, as 9 years old iPhone 4s phones are still in circulation.

So to draw the parallels here: iPhone is nothing like Tesla. It has great ergonomics, great material quality, great fit and finish, great reliability, great quality control. The only treat they both share is ‘simple’ ‘clean’ design. But clean and simple design is not the same as simplicity. Juggling with the touchscreen to adjust mirrors, or open the glovebox is not simplicity.

Tesla is more like Galaxy Fold. A good idea, but the execution isn’t good; and it’s waiting to be executed by companies who know how to execute products like Apple or Google. EV is a great idea that will be executed way better by BMW, Merc, Audi.
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      07-31-2019, 01:58 PM   #2191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
2011 design vs 2019 design
Of course you put Tesla cockpit in that angle, so the details aren’t seen. But the thing is, quality is in the details; and as someone who says F82 interior is “awful awful” it’s well established that you have no idea what quality is. Let me show you a car that has worst build quality than any VW, Audi, BMW, Merc in the last 30 years. Heck, even Kias are better than this.

Here’s the Tesla 3, which shames (!) the quality of the best German executive saloon in the market.
Tesla’s quality is worst than most Toyotas.







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      07-31-2019, 02:59 PM   #2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Awful? Really?
Do you have any idea what the word quality means?
F82 interior quality is better than any Tesla. This is the equivalent of my F82’s interior. I would take this interior, even E92 or E46 interior to any Tesla. Tesla can maybe match E36 interior in terms of quality, fit& finish. You don’t know what fit & finish is, so I understand you I guess.
I am glad you enjoy that F3X/F8X interior. I never cared for it, couldn't wait to get rid of it. Sea of hard plastic. Too many plastic pieces creating too many gaps. Flimsy buttons. Forums are filled with such threads.

I enjoy my Merc interior more. Truly "sublime" and "world class" if you ask me. Model 3 not too shabby imo. I hope you can see past the prejudice and appreciate it for what it is. A clean minimalist design with good material quality.
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      07-31-2019, 03:04 PM   #2193
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Of course you put Tesla cockpit in that angle, so the details aren’t seen. But the thing is, quality is in the details;

They are direct screen grabs from Tesla and BMW official websites. Don't hate the messenger.

Yes, quality is in the details. Please look inside your F3X/F8X interior, black gaps between black plastic bits.
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      07-31-2019, 04:18 PM   #2194
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Strange, a game changer like the Tesla 3 is criticised pages and pages about fit and finish. Maybe, we miss the point then?

When I remember my test drive, it felt planted and poised, haptical quality was ok (only just), performance was mind blowing, running costs are about half that of a comparable BMW. I immediately had the idea that this is a car for the future.

About fit and finish, it's important it doesn't crackle and squeakes which it didn't. My F10 is much "looser" and is less stiff. Although it's difficult to judge on a new car, T3 felt rock solid.
Yes but get into a fender bender and face a $10K-$15K repair bill and lose your car of the future to the proverbial body shop for months at a time because spare parts from Tesla are far and few in between. They are more worried about streaming Netflix to your car than improving the dismal after sales service and support. And with the iron clad grip Tesla has on the service and repair experience, good luck maintaining one of these long after the warranty has expired as you will be forced to pay Tesla service center prices for anything your marvel from the future will require.

This is why for Tesla to become a viable option for many, guys like Rich Rebuilds need to keep popping up in the landscape to make keeping these fast golf carts financially viable in the future.
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      07-31-2019, 04:29 PM   #2195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Yes but get into a fender bender and face a $10K-$15K repair bill and lose your car of the future to the proverbial body shop for months at a time because spare parts from Tesla are far and few in between.
Check out the TFLCar videos documenting their Model 3 repair saga for the horror stories in the comments about all kinds of other non-Tesla brand cars sitting for months in bodyshops after similar collisions.

And speaking of maintenance costs: guess how much I've spent over the last few months on troubleshooting a VANOS intake solenoid error in our 135i N54?

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      07-31-2019, 04:39 PM   #2196
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Hereís the Tesla 3, which shames (!) the quality of the best German executive saloon in the market.
Teslaís quality is worst than most Toyotas.
It's July 2019 outside, and the best you could do was offer photos of a Tesla built in January 2018, when they still hadn't even properly started mass production of that model?

(Suggestion: next time when you google, don't bias your search by using "poor" or "bad" right in the search query.)
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      07-31-2019, 05:03 PM   #2197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Yes but get into a fender bender and face a $10K-$15K repair bill and lose your car of the future to the proverbial body shop for months at a time because spare parts from Tesla are far and few in between.
Check out the TFLCar videos documenting their Model 3 repair saga for the horror stories in the comments about all kinds of other non-Tesla brand cars sitting for months in bodyshops after similar collisions.

And speaking of maintenance costs: guess how much I've spent over the last few months on troubleshooting a VANOS intake solenoid error in our 135i N54?
Ahhh the N54... That's all you need to know.
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      07-31-2019, 05:35 PM   #2198
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N54 actually sounds good, unlike the 4 bangers these days.....sigh.....

Even the silent motor whine of a Model 3 sounds better than these 4 bangers, plus, you are actually moving
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      07-31-2019, 06:06 PM   #2199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
N54 actually sounds good, unlike the 4 bangers these days.....sigh.....

Even the silent motor whine of a Model 3 sounds better than these 4 bangers, plus, you are actually moving
I would expect none less from a $60K golf cart put together under a circus tent.

I would agree also that most golf carts, cushmans, etc have very silent electric motors... You feel like riding a cloud with that bad ass instant torque!
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      07-31-2019, 06:26 PM   #2200
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Wow, the least you can say is that this topic is polarising amongst haters and others. I can't change my position, the T3 dual drive was at least for me a milestone experience in the positive sense.

And yes, most probably the G30 has better build and finish, but that's not the point. The G30 is old school architecture, past and died, over and done. BMW missed the party on this one trying to mask it with features like a lcd fob key, or gesture control... pointless.

T3 is not pointless, it's highly relevant and will remain a milestone in car history. G30 will not, I don't see how it would.
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