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      03-22-2016, 10:02 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
What have I mentioned that isn't factual. Please inform me. And please be direct.
It's subjective and opinionated, like the following.

You're right--poverty makes no distinction, but what that article is talking about is Trump targeting the anger of that working-class white voter demographic. He's playing on that whole "they took our jobs" mentality. There's more to it, but bottom line he's playing that demographic for suckers for votes.

Your opinion on taxes is just that, an opinion. Depending on your view you could argue either way.

Your opinion on climate change, again, is just that, and if your oversimplified rational for not believing was really so clear and correct then the rest of the world must be really gullible. Don't get me wrong, it's a controversial issue sure, and I'm all for dissenting opinions on theories like this. They're fun to read.
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      03-22-2016, 10:13 AM   #1366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beartato View Post
It's subjective and opinionated, like the following.

You're right--poverty makes no distinction, but what that article is talking about is Trump targeting the anger of that working-class white voter demographic. He's playing on that whole "they took our jobs" mentality. There's more to it, but bottom line he's playing that demographic for suckers for votes. Just as other politicians do to target their potential voting demographic.

Your opinion on taxes is just that, an opinion. Depending on your view you could argue either way. No. It is not. Both confiscatory tax policies and high interest rates result in a stagnation of money flowing. The confiscatory tax policy need not be explained. The high interest rates result in money residing in banks and because the interest rates being paid are so high, the rate charged for loans is correspondingly high resulting in a stagnation of money flowing, as well.

Your opinion on climate change, again, is just that, and if your oversimplified rational for not believing was really so clear and correct then the rest of the world must be really gullible. Don't get me wrong, it's a controversial issue sure, and I'm all for dissenting opinions on theories like this. They're fun to read.
Sadly, most of the rest of the world is gullible. Have you watched television lately? And I have not oversimplified the actual fact that There Is Not Enough Data To Conclusively State That We Are Causing Global Climate Change. That is an actual fact. It would be as if I, in my profession, presented the FDA with a single clinical trial that included 5 patients for my new blockbuster drug that cures all types of cancer. I would get laughed out of the room and probably sent to the loony bin.
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      03-22-2016, 10:34 AM   #1367
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Targeting demographics is the name of the game, the article was identifying Trump's tactics.

For the taxes, can't argue with that, but it's still your view point.

The "not enough data" stance seems to be the last hold out for climate change denialists. If there was 200 years, it wouldn't be enough, 500, not enough, 1000, 2000, 1 million, it wouldn't be enough huh? This is where I'd link multiple websites explaining how your viewpoint is flawed but I'm sure you'll smugly dismiss them as being part of "the system" or whatever.

My point is, your conclusions and viewpoints aren't "facts" as you've stated. The details said within individually might be factual but your opinions drawn from those facts are still an opinion.
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      03-22-2016, 10:35 AM   #1368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
What an incredibly racist article. If Robert Reich thinks Trump is co-opting only low income white voters, he needs to dig a bit further. But that wouldn't fit his narrative. This is how the media and career politicians and Academics (like Robert Reich) have utterly missed the boat in this election. They are causing the Trump phenomenon.
To be fair he's not completely wrong. Statistically he appeals to low income, uneducated white people who feel their jobs are being outsourced hence why he's anti-immigration stance resonates well with them.

Not saying that's ALL he appeals to but just that that demographic are statistically most likely to be Trump supporters. I wouldn't demonize those voters saying how they're ushering in some hyperbolic disaster or anything stupid like that.

It is funny though, the low income, working class who feel disenfranchised are leaning towards a narcissistic, ego-driven billionaire as their savoir.

Also I'm not sure why people are shocked that Robert Reich is so liberal....he works at Berkeley, that's like ground zero for wide left folks.
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      03-22-2016, 10:36 AM   #1369
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MKSixer Where can I buy your cancer drug, is it on Amazon or Groupon yet?
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      03-22-2016, 10:39 AM   #1370
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
MKSixer Where can I buy your cancer drug, is it on Amazon or Groupon yet?
How did you know? I will post the Groupon code in a few minutes.
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      03-22-2016, 10:46 AM   #1371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved
I'm not a Robert Reich fan....he's just a bit too pedantic and way too left leaning.

However, none of you have really refuted what he said. He's not claiming that ONLY poor, under educated whites of a certain age group are supporting Trump. He's stating that Trump captures a lot of their votes. Is that not accurate?
I don't think anyone has any idea. Outside of "exit polls" (which are mostly worthless) and telephone surveys (which are entirely worthless) what would be the source of such data?
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      03-22-2016, 10:48 AM   #1372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
What an incredibly racist article. If Robert Reich thinks Trump is co-opting only low income white voters, he needs to dig a bit further. But that wouldn't fit his narrative. This is how the media and career politicians and Academics (like Robert Reich) have utterly missed the boat in this election. They are causing the Trump phenomenon.
To be fair he's not completely wrong. Statistically he appeals to low income, uneducated white people who feel their jobs are being outsourced hence why he's anti-immigration stance resonates well with them.

Not saying that's ALL he appeals to but just that that demographic are statistically most likely to be Trump supporters. I wouldn't demonize those voters saying how they're ushering in some hyperbolic disaster or anything stupid like that.

It is funny though, the low income, working class who feel disenfranchised are leaning towards a narcissistic, ego-driven billionaire as their savoir.

Also I'm not sure why people are shocked that Robert Reich is so liberal....he works at Berkeley, that's like ground zero for wide left folks.
I generally agree with you, but would add - which politician isn't narcissistic and ego-driven? And the Clinton's certainly aren't broke; with their (apparently corrupt) Foundation, they are billionaires as well.

I'm very suspect of any data that points to any group supporting a particular candidate. When you dig into the research, it's usually biased or naively inaccurate.
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      03-22-2016, 10:48 AM   #1373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beartato View Post
Targeting demographics is the name of the game, the article was identifying Trump's tactics.

For the taxes, can't argue with that, but it's still your view point.

The "not enough data" stance seems to be the last hold out for climate change denialists. If there was 200 years, it wouldn't be enough, 500, not enough, 1000, 2000, 1 million, it wouldn't be enough huh? This is where I'd link multiple websites explaining how your viewpoint is flawed but I'm sure you'll smugly dismiss them as being part of "the system" or whatever.

My point is, your conclusions and viewpoints aren't "facts" as you've stated. The details said within individually might be factual but your opinions drawn from those facts are still an opinion.
The last hold out? Really?
Do you understand how data is analyzed? IT IS THE FIRST THING I SAID WHEN THIS FOOLISHNESS WAS FIRST GERMINATED!!! Remember...we are supposed to be in an Ice Age based on what the first quack stated about climate change in the 70's and 80's.

Please show me a legitimately derived P-value for any 'climate change...study'. Any will suffice.

Show me a statement that states anything besides, 'It may be inferred from the data that x-variable may have some affect on blah blah blah...'!!!!

This type of language is very sciency but not actual science. Sorry. It doesn't pass the smell test. And don't even bring up the thousands of email that were discovered from scientists stating that the data is inconclusive but we need to press on with the story.

C'mon. This is why I think most people are gullible. And if I have to go with my thinking versus what EVERYONE else is thinking, I ALWAYS go with MY THINKING. The way of the mob is the way of folly.

Cheers-mk
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      03-22-2016, 10:55 AM   #1374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I don't think anyone has any idea. Outside of "exit polls" (which are mostly worthless) and telephone surveys (which are entirely worthless) what would be the source of such data?
There are plenty of studies/articles/sources out there detailing this presumption. Online poles, exit poles, voter demographics in areas where Trump has led, etc. all point to this notion of a certain type of citizen that is inclined to support him.

This is a decent one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/up...crat.html?_r=0
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      03-22-2016, 11:08 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I generally agree with you, but would add - which politician isn't narcissistic and ego-driven? And the Clinton's certainly aren't broke; with their (apparently corrupt) Foundation, they are billionaires as well.

I'm very suspect of any data that points to any group supporting a particular candidate. When you dig into the research, it's usually biased or naively inaccurate.
Won't dispute that, my overarching point (and it may be overly cynical) is that neither candidate cares about their plight. There's too much money to be made for industrial America to ever come back. America's manufacturing days are over, just like it was coal mining before that, and cotton/tobacco before that. Now it's all technology.

Donald Trump may project an image that he can't be bought like other candidates can, but who stays at his five star hotels and play at his world class golf courses?
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      03-22-2016, 11:33 AM   #1376
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So, from all the climate models, I should have a few inches of sea water at my feet now. We lost a lot of sand to erosion (in part, of the Army Corps budget) but still no water here.

Is the Artic ice ebbing and flowing? Undoubtedly.
Does the plague that is humanity have a part in this? Certainly.
Is it to the level that the species is going to tip the balance BEFORE all the fossil fuels run out? I can't quite get my head around that part yet.

Oh, and BS - Mathematics, University of LaVerne; MS - Systems Management, USC
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      03-22-2016, 12:41 PM   #1377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
So, from all the climate models, I should have a few inches of sea water at my feet now. We lost a lot of sand to erosion (in part, of the Army Corps budget) but still no water here.

Is the Artic ice ebbing and flowing? Undoubtedly.
Does the plague that is humanity have a part in this? Certainly.
Is it to the level that the species is going to tip the balance BEFORE all the fossil fuels run out? I can't quite get my head around that part yet.

Oh, and BS - Mathematics, University of LaVerne; MS - Systems Management, USC
So are you denying that climate change is real?
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      03-22-2016, 01:20 PM   #1378
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Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
So are you denying that climate change is real?
MrRoboto

I don't think anyone is denying that climate change is real. It is. Let me go on the record and say that. What I am saying definitively is that the man made component is exaggerated in both intensity and scope.

The world is an incredibly complex ecosystem which operates in a manner at which mere man can only vaguely speculate.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a colleague who reported to me many years ago. She speculated that we could destroy the world...literally crack it open and make it spin off into space a la Space: 1999 with nuclear weapons. I shared with her that that is patently ridiculous and that we possess neither the raw power nor the ability to channel that energy to accomplish that task. She literally said, 'Fine...I think that you are wrong AND I will ask my dad, a PE with and Masters degree AND a BS in Physics who is correct.'

She did. She was incorrect. The earth is a pretty big freaking place and tougher and more resilient than all the crap we can throw at it. Does this mean that we should be completely irresponsible and become wanton despoilers of the environment? NO.

What it does mean, to me, is that we should be stewards of the parts of the environment that we control and stop listening to a bunch of politicians, entertainers, and yes, even a few of the scientist (Who are proclaiming that the world is hanging in the balance.), and employ common sense in determining the actual facts and what they really mean.

Cheers-mk
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      03-22-2016, 01:48 PM   #1379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
MrRoboto

I don't think anyone is denying that climate change is real. It is. Let me go on the record and say that. What I am saying definitively is that the man made component is exaggerated in both intensity and scope.

The world is an incredibly complex ecosystem which operates in a manner at which mere man can only vaguely speculate.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a colleague who reported to me many years ago. She speculated that we could destroy the world...literally crack it open and make it spin off into space a la Space: 1999 with nuclear weapons. I shared with her that that is patently ridiculous and that we possess neither the raw power nor the ability to channel that energy to accomplish that task. She literally said, 'Fine...I think that you are wrong AND I will ask my dad, a PE with and Masters degree AND a BS in Physics who is correct.'

She did. She was incorrect. The earth is a pretty big freaking place and tougher and more resilient than all the crap we can throw at it. Does this mean that we should be completely irresponsible and become wanton despoilers of the environment? NO.

What it does mean, to me, is that we should be stewards of the parts of the environment that we control and stop listening to a bunch of politicians, entertainers, and yes, even a few of the scientist (Who are proclaiming that the world is hanging in the balance.), and employ common sense in determining the actual facts and what they really mean.

Cheers-mk

I think the evidence that humanity is the major cause of the state of the planet is overwhelming at this point. The questions is how do we fix it?

If you folks haven't seen this yet, NASA has some great info. http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
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      03-22-2016, 03:23 PM   #1380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
I think the evidence that humanity is the major cause of the state of the planet is overwhelming at this point. The questions is how do we fix it?

If you folks haven't seen this yet, NASA has some great info. http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
This is the type of, 'sciency' statement I was discussing earlier. ( The emphasis is my own.)

From the above quoted website:

Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities, and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position.

This is information disguised as science. A more accurate statement would have added: However, the data is inconclusive at this point and the aforementioned statement is a consensus statement based on our collective learned opinion.

That is a statement that I could get behind. Not the insinuation that it is a scientific fact as the quoted statement is trying to slip in.

Cheers-mk
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      03-22-2016, 05:03 PM   #1381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other_evolved
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I don't think anyone has any idea. Outside of "exit polls" (which are mostly worthless) and telephone surveys (which are entirely worthless) what would be the source of such data?
There are plenty of studies/articles/sources out there detailing this presumption. Online poles, exit poles, voter demographics in areas where Trump has led, etc. all point to this notion of a certain type of citizen that is inclined to support him.

This is a decent one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/up...crat.html?_r=0
So the (far-left-leaning) New York Times publishes an article that says the data is suspect, and cites a democrat polling organization and "Google searches for racist jokes,"? It says the #2 state for Trump supporters is NY, followed closely by FL (trump is a New Yorker, and FL is full of New Yorkers. Could something be amiss in this conclusion?

Oh - and here's the main source for the article:

"Dan Wagner (Chief Executive Officer and Founder of Civis Analytics) served as the Chief Analytics Officer on the Obama for America 2012 Campaign, overseeing a 54-person team that revolutionized political data and analytics. More than a third of the original team works at Civis today."
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      03-22-2016, 05:08 PM   #1382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
I think the evidence that humanity is the major cause of the state of the planet is overwhelming at this point. The questions is how do we fix it?

If you folks haven't seen this yet, NASA has some great info. http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
This is the type of, 'sciency' statement I was discussing earlier. ( The emphasis is my own.)

From the above quoted website:

Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities, and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position.

This is information disguised as science. A more accurate statement would have added: However, the data is inconclusive at this point and the aforementioned statement is a consensus statement based on our collective learned opinion.

That is a statement that I could get behind. Not the insinuation that it is a scientific fact as the quoted statement is trying to slip in.

Cheers-mk
The "97% of scientists" claims has been de-bunked: it was also a made-up number. NASA has jumped on the GW bandwagon as well, as they are controlled by the Obama Administration.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepst.../#6082848b7187

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...sus-ian-tuttle

https://www.skepticalscience.com/glo...-consensus.htm
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      03-22-2016, 06:17 PM   #1383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The "97% of scientists" claims has been de-bunked: it was also a made-up number. NASA has jumped on the GW bandwagon as well, as they are controlled by the Obama Administration.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepst.../#6082848b7187

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...sus-ian-tuttle

https://www.skepticalscience.com/glo...-consensus.htm
Yes OBAMA is responsible for everything. Global warming. Isis, poverty, and excessive number of rodents in New York.... Once he leaves office, all will be good again
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      03-22-2016, 07:15 PM   #1384
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Thanks Obama.
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      03-22-2016, 07:29 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian View Post
Yes OBAMA is responsible for everything. Global warming. Isis, poverty, and excessive number of rodents in New York.... Once he leaves office, all will be good again
NO.
He presented a validated rebuttal of the 97% number and it's suspect origin. This is the issue.
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      03-22-2016, 07:53 PM   #1386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The "97% of scientists" claims has been de-bunked: it was also a made-up number. NASA has jumped on the GW bandwagon as well, as they are controlled by the Obama Administration.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepst.../#6082848b7187

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...sus-ian-tuttle

https://www.skepticalscience.com/glo...-consensus.htm
Yes OBAMA is responsible for everything. Global warming. Isis, poverty, and excessive number of rodents in New York.... Once he leaves office, all will be good again
Well, here is the head of NASA in 2010, talking about what Obama had made the mission of NASA:

"When I became the NASA Administrator, [President Obama] charged me with three things. One, he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math; he wanted me to expand our international relationships; and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science, math and engineering."

I wonder how much energy NASA has been able to devote to space, much less climate research, given their Obama-given priorities? Making the Muslim world feel good about their medieval contributions to society would seem to be more than a full-time job. At taxpayer's expense, of course. After all, their 2016 budget is only $18.5B.
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