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      06-03-2018, 11:09 AM   #2267
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I posted this clarification earlier, but apparently people are still misinterpreting my comment. When I point out that the US President solely determines if something is a national security concern; I'm speaking to the workings of the US government. Within the US government the President alone ultimately decides what is or isn't officially a national security concern. This fact is irrespective of the WTO, UN, EU, Canada, Mexico, Bimmerpost members, etc..
Yeah, about that. Corker seems to think it's time to shut that shit down.

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      06-03-2018, 11:12 AM   #2268
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I posted this clarification earlier, but apparently people are still misinterpreting my comment. When I point out that the US President solely determines if something is a national security concern; I'm speaking to the workings of the US government. Within the US government the President alone ultimately decides what is or isn't officially a national security concern. This fact is irrespective of the WTO, UN, EU, Canada, Mexico, Bimmerpost members, etc..
Yeah, about that. Corker seems to think it's time to shut that shit down.

The ultimate heresy is this: he's seeking bipartisan support!
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      06-03-2018, 11:17 AM   #2269
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The ultimate heresy is this: he's seeking bipartisan support!
God I love that dude. He's so tiny, cuddly and beautiful. I'd totally make him my snuggling pall.

I truly hope people hop along to their calculators and figure out how much this will pay off before we have a world of hurt in front of us.
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      06-03-2018, 11:37 AM   #2270
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I posted this clarification earlier, but apparently people are still misinterpreting my comment. When I point out that the US President solely determines if something is a national security concern; I'm speaking to the workings of the US government. Within the US government the President alone ultimately decides what is or isn't officially a national security concern. This fact is irrespective of the WTO, UN, EU, Canada, Mexico, Bimmerpost members, etc..
Yeah, about that. Corker seems to think it's time to shut that shit down.

I don't believe Corker has proposed anything yet, so it's difficult to discuss his intentions. Actually, I'm not so sure you're not making an assumption that he is going to "shut down" anything President Trump is talking about. Maybe we will learn more in the coming days and we can discuss Corker's desires.
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      06-03-2018, 11:46 AM   #2271
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I don't believe Corker has proposed anything yet, so it's difficult to discuss his intentions. Actually, I'm not so sure you're not making an assumption that he is going to "shut down" anything President Trump is talking about. Maybe we will learn more in the coming days and we can discuss Corker's desires.
True, that was just a statement. I did a rough headcount and I think he can get 60 votes for it pretty easily. Veto proof majority can be bought fairly cheaply for this I think.
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      06-03-2018, 12:47 PM   #2272
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In baseball, the phrase used would be "and the whiff" for Giuliani

Trump 'could pardon himself over Russia but won't', says Giuliani http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44348991
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      06-03-2018, 12:52 PM   #2273
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In baseball, the phrase used would be "and the whiff" for Giuliani

Trump 'could pardon himself over Russia but won't', says Giuliani http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44348991
But he's innocent! You'd have to be guilty to be pardoned!
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      06-03-2018, 01:16 PM   #2274
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
In baseball, the phrase used would be "and the whiff" for Giuliani

Trump 'could pardon himself over Russia but won't', says Giuliani http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44348991
But he's innocent! You'd have to be guilty to be pardoned!
But will he pardon Lups for all the chicken offenses against nature?
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      06-03-2018, 01:20 PM   #2275
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But will he pardon Lups for all the chicken offenses against nature?
I only violate them by chewing! I was kindhearted enough to reinvent them as substitutes for birth control!

I doubt I'd be pardoned by anyone. I'm pretty horrible person.
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      06-03-2018, 01:34 PM   #2276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
In baseball, the phrase used would be "and the whiff" for Giuliani

Trump 'could pardon himself over Russia but won't', says Giuliani http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44348991
But he's innocent! You'd have to be guilty to be pardoned!
Actually you are mistaken. You can be pardoned preemptively.
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      06-03-2018, 01:36 PM   #2277
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
In baseball, the phrase used would be "and the whiff" for Giuliani

Trump 'could pardon himself over Russia but won't', says Giuliani http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44348991
Huh? No swing. No whiff.
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      06-03-2018, 01:41 PM   #2278
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Actually you are mistaken. You can be pardoned preemptively.
Yes, I've read about the Watergate. Accepting a pardoning I do believe means admitting guilt.
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      06-03-2018, 01:44 PM   #2279
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Actually you are mistaken. You can be pardoned preemptively.
Yes, I've read about the Watergate. Accepting a pardoning I do believe means admitting guilt.
That would be an assumption that in no way makes it so. Preemptive pardons would shield the innocent from massive legal bills and stress of defending yourself.
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      06-03-2018, 01:52 PM   #2280
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That would be an assumption that in no way makes it so. Preemptive pardons would shield the innocent from massive legal bills and stress of a trial.
No. In modern world every person can have a lawyer provided for them for free if needed.

Pardon me for stepping on your toes.

Pardon? When I can't hear you, and I accept it to be my fault.

Even in every day situations, even Canadians don't use pardon for situations they are not at fault. And those fuckers don't use it in milk though they should!

A pardon accepted also means that you can't plead the fifth, you can however perjure yourself after receiving a pardon too.

Pardoning people is not a way to decide who's guilty or who's innocent. The conviction stays in the record as does the claims.
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      06-03-2018, 01:56 PM   #2281
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
That would be an assumption that in no way makes it so. Preemptive pardons would shield the innocent from massive legal bills and stress of a trial.
No. In modern world every person can have a lawyer provided for them for free if needed.

Pardon me for stepping on your toes.

Pardon? When I can't hear you, and I accept it to be my fault.

Even in every day situations, even Canadians don't use pardon for situations they are not at fault. And those fuckers don't use it in milk though they should!

A pardon accepted also means that you can't plead the fifth, you can however perjure yourself after receiving a pardon too.

Pardoning people is not a way to decide who's guilty or who's innocent. The conviction stays in the record as does the claims.
What are you saying "no" to exactly? A preemptive pardon would absolutely spare the innocent (and guilty for that matter) the stress and expenses of defending yourself. This isn't arguable.
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      06-03-2018, 02:03 PM   #2282
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
What are you saying "no" to exactly? A preemptive pardon would absolutely spare the innocent (and guilty for that matter) the stress and expenses of defending yourself. This isn't arguable.
Accepting a pardoning does not make them innocent, it makes them guilty. It'll save money and effort for sure but that means they don't have the fifth. So basically who can trump pardon without landing in a world of hurt?

And everyone is entitled to a free lawyer if they can't pay for one. That means that in a modern country nobody is left to defend for themselves.
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      06-03-2018, 02:09 PM   #2283
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
What are you saying "no" to exactly? A preemptive pardon would absolutely spare the innocent (and guilty for that matter) the stress and expenses of defending yourself. This isn't arguable.
Accepting a pardoning does not make them innocent, it makes them guilty. It'll save money and effort for sure but that means they don't have the fifth. So basically who can trump pardon without landing in a world of hurt?

And everyone is entitled to a free lawyer if they can't pay for one. That means that in a modern country nobody is left to defend for themselves.
We agree that a preemptive pardon doesn't "make them innocent" but it sure as hell doesn't make them guilty! It simply shields them from having to go through a trial in the first place. Remember- You are innocent until proven guilty in the US. A pardon doesn't prove guilt AT ALL.
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      06-03-2018, 02:15 PM   #2284
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We agree that a preemptive pardon doesn't "make them innocent" but it sure as hell doesn't make them guilty! It simply shields them from having to go through a trial in the first place.
Again, it takes away the right to plead the fifth, which means they have to tell everything if questioned since anything they say can't be used against them if they don't lie.

You can be innocent and plead the fifth. You can't be innocent and pardoned and then plead the fifth since that goes away.

So. If trump pardons himself, and that power has not been tested, he would tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm not exactly sure how being pardoned and keeping the benefits of a crime would work but I'm sure your supreme court would get busy.

And you sir are right. Being pardoned doesn't mean accepting a pardon does.

Come the fuck on guys! I know for a fact Hal of the members here are lawyers! And lawyers who speak English too! I'm working here on a few hours of research I'm only quoting the dude from Harvard and the chick from the other school.
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      06-03-2018, 02:24 PM   #2285
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We agree that a preemptive pardon doesn't "make them innocent" but it sure as hell doesn't make them guilty! It simply shields them from having to go through a trial in the first place.
Again, it takes away the right to plead the fifth, which means they have to tell everything if questioned since anything they say can't be used against them if they don't lie.

You can be innocent and plead the fifth. You can't be innocent and pardoned and then plead the fifth since that goes away.

So. If trump pardons himself, and that power has not been tested, he would tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm not exactly sure how being pardoned and keeping the benefits of a crime would work but I'm sure your supreme court would get busy.
I don't know where you're going with pleading the fifth. I'm only speaking to pardons generally. My point was only that a pardon can indeed be granted preemptively; and that it is impossible for a preemptive pardon to assign guilt since you are innocent until proven guilty. A pardon isn't legally proving guilt.
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      06-03-2018, 02:32 PM   #2286
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I don't know where you're going with pleading the fifth. I'm only speaking to pardons generally. My point was only that a pardon can indeed be granted preemptively; and that it is impossible for a preemptive pardon to assign guilt since you are innocent until proven guilty. A pardon isn't legally proving guilt.
Accepting one is.

That's a game over thing.
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      06-03-2018, 02:45 PM   #2287
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I don't know where you're going with pleading the fifth. I'm only speaking to pardons generally. My point was only that a pardon can indeed be granted preemptively; and that it is impossible for a preemptive pardon to assign guilt since you are innocent until proven guilty. A pardon isn't legally proving guilt.
Accepting one is.

That's a game over thing.
Only implies guilt in the court of public opinion. I'm speaking to the court of law.

So let's play out a hypothetical... Lups is facing federal prosecution for something she is innocent of. The President grants her a pardon, but she would reject it because of concerns it would imply guilt. Instead Lups would choose a public defender (!) for the biggest case of her life; go through years of proceedings, hoping the justice system would find her innocent for something she could have been pardoned for years earlier.

Nuts.
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      06-03-2018, 02:53 PM   #2288
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Only implies guilt in the court of public opinion. I'm speaking to the court of law.

So let's play out a hypothetical... Lups is facing federal prosecution for something she is innocent of. The President grants her a pardon, but she would reject it because of concerns it would imply guilt. Lups would instead choose a public defender (!) for the biggest case of her life; go through years of proceedings, hoping the justice system would find her innocent for something she could have been pardoned for years earlier.

Nuts.
We all should wonder real hard why Lups would be pardoned before the trial and why she accepted it. If she had been informed that she would be pardoned before a conviction, why not wait until the jury is out? I can't think of an other than arpaio who's been pardoned who has maintained he was innocent, can you?


In my country if I'm being prosecuted for a crime I'd get a defense lawyer fit for the case. Having a day in court is just a sliver of the justice served and needed.
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