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      11-23-2019, 12:30 AM   #2509
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I snickered, but I donít think anyone else caught it.
Maybe no one cared.

I didn't catch it.
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      11-23-2019, 07:53 AM   #2510
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Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Something like this would have been so much better.

Attachment 2185222
Maybe that's why this costs $39.9k while the Rivian costs $69k for a smaller, less capable truck. If Tesla is going out of business all EVs are doomed, forget about Faraday Future and Lucid Motors, they are doomed.
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      11-23-2019, 08:00 AM   #2511
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Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Something like this would have been so much better.

Attachment 2185222
Maybe that's why this costs $39.9k while the Rivian costs $69k for a smaller, less capable truck. If Tesla is going out of business all EVs are doomed, forget about Faraday Future and Lucid Motors, they are doomed.
Disagree. If Tesla goes out of business it is because of their own doing and their narcissist CEO. They will become a footnote in history but EVs will continue to soldier on under far more reputable manufacturers that actually understand vehicle design, quality construction/fit & finish and proper after sales support logistics.
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      11-23-2019, 11:24 AM   #2512
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Likely rushed out that shittruck abomination to keep the company plodding along on deposits.
How long have they been taking deposits on the roadster? Seems like years.
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      11-23-2019, 10:28 PM   #2513
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Originally Posted by MFNATIK View Post
Its really simple. BMW is the past. Tesla is the future. A king has rein, then he dies.

I love BMW, but they really lost their grip during Harald Kruger's time at the helm. Now that BMW has squandered their lead in electrification after a great start with the i8 and i3, which gave Tesla enough time has step in with their 3 series killer, the Model 3. I'm not sure how BMW will compete in this space as more and more loyal BMW owners move on. There are so many BMW converts over on the Tesla Motors forum. Even some familiar faces from bimmerpost.

This year will be the first time in over 20 years that I will be purchasing something other than a BMW. Although I'm gonna hang onto my F80 and E46 M3, these may be the last BMWs I'll buy for awhile. Just recently I placed an order for a 2020 Model 3 LR AWD Performance sleeper that will run neck and with the new M8 Gran Coupe doing 0-60 in 3 secs flat for 1/3 the price and 95% less maintenance. BMW has nothing that is comparatively quick remotely in this price range so it's time to move on. The future awaits.
Sure, sure...

Tesla is a pyramid scheme fueled with tax payers money and tax cuts for their wealthy customers.

A factory that produces random outcomes...

Poor aftersales support and replacement parts nearly non existing in the supply pipeline.

Ridiculous body shop repair times and astronomical bills resulting from even "minor" encounters.

Tesla can only survive when:

The narcissistic/pot head CEO steps down.

When a legacy manufacturer that actually understands how to properly put together a vehicle comes to their rescue and buys them outright.

Golf kart makers are also the future. Anyone can manufacture an electric motor, but few understand or have the experience required to properly build and support a "Luxury" EV with the experience that should
Come with it.
Oil is heavily subsidized as well. Tesla is no different.
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      11-24-2019, 07:04 AM   #2514
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      11-26-2019, 05:41 AM   #2515
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There is a lot of hate for Tesla on here.

I dont have one. I dont want one. I drive a Mercedes, i dont want that either......i want my M3 back. Anyway.

But with the Model 3 being the 3rd topselling car here in the UK in August, they must be doing something right for the masses.

I think car enthusiasts such as us are very much in the minority, but there is no doubting Mr Musk is gripping the world by the balls and, well, they are loving it.

I dont think Tesla are bad......just different.

They have found a niche in the market and exploited it. Very clever.
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      11-26-2019, 09:55 PM   #2516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CigarPundit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Likely rushed out that shittruck abomination to keep the company plodding along on deposits.
How long have they been taking deposits on the roadster? Seems like years.
Both Semi and roadster were announced at the same event in 2017 and Model Y sometime later and they have yet to see the light of day with no ETA or they keep postponing it. Now they added this truck so they are 4 vehicles still pending production. It looks like 4 years + between product reveal of working prototype and taking reservations to actual production. Seems to be a long time to wait though there was a significant time from when the Toyota Supra prototype started appearing at Cars and Coffee as an EV before it entered production but they weren't taking reservations.
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      11-27-2019, 06:55 PM   #2517
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Originally Posted by MFNATIK View Post
Its really simple. BMW is the past. Tesla is the future. A king has rein, then he dies.

I love BMW, but they really lost their grip during Harald Kruger's time at the helm. Now that BMW has squandered their lead in electrification after a great start with the i8 and i3, which gave Tesla enough time has step in with their 3 series killer, the Model 3. I'm not sure how BMW will compete in this space as more and more loyal BMW owners move on. There are so many BMW converts over on the Tesla Motors forum. Even some familiar faces from bimmerpost.

This year will be the first time in over 20 years that I will be purchasing something other than a BMW. Although I'm gonna hang onto my F80 and E46 M3, these may be the last BMWs I'll buy for awhile. Just recently I placed an order for a 2020 Model 3 LR AWD Performance sleeper that will run neck and with the new M8 Gran Coupe doing 0-60 in 3 secs flat for 1/3 the price and 95% less maintenance. BMW has nothing that is comparatively quick remotely in this price range so it's time to move on. The future awaits.
3 killer? LOL let us give you the truth, it is garbage! Honestly, it is! Before you think this is some anti-tesla thing, read carefully before committing mortgage figures. Keep in mind that Model 3 AWD failed to do a single Nurburgring Hot Lap. I saw it barely complete a single Mount Tremblant lap, before its non Gt, Brembo OEM generic steel rotors overheated two thirds into it. Lap 3 the car was retired with overheating battery. So for a car that in my country costs 100,000$ Canadian, Model 3 AWD- which I also drove, as my neighbor owns one, dropped to 170km range out of 500 in winter! -20 -40C it drains just sitting outside at work. And cannot do performance on its 4200 lbs 360mm puny cheap OEM Brembo steels.

SPEAKING of Brembo GT brakes, want to know how quickly regen brakes fail when not used sufficiently? 2-3 years. Cost? Well, GOOGLE it but with a restrictive supply chain, Tesla charges 8500$ for rotors and pistons. US $. So whereas I am on year 7, original brembo rear rotors, and Carbon Ceramic fronts, Model S and AWD P cost thousands more than a BMW brake set while lasting way less!

https://enrg.io/2012-tesla-model-s-n...-brake-repair/

And there is tons more. They RUST! like 2000s Mazda garbage! We use 24% salinity from December until late march or twice sea level! Hyundai used to rust as badly. Turns out the panels and body, except the aluminum sub frame, everything else is cheap ungalvanized untreated poorly painted garbage. In Quebec the APA has supported expertise for a class action- but so few people bought a Model 3- word spread- that they only have less than 100 unfortunate owners with peeling and rusting Model 3s.. Which tesla blamed for driving through debris... Before, November 2019, introducing mud flaps as options.

https://model3quebec.com/probleme-de...de-la-model-3/
https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2019/05/...n-an-plus-tard

yep, a repainted Model 3 has major body work, VIN is tagged and 30% value loss as well.. GARBAGE. BTW My neighbor’s model 3 suspension snapped jan 2018, -20C, tiny road deformation. Ain't Bilstein nor Ohlins! 7500 kms new. His LCD failed to respond at -30C preheated. Rear windows rattle in cold. Range, -70% loss.

Kruger bringing Josef Kaban from Skoda to BMW, and his Opel design cues, was a BIG mistake. And also, maybe Kruger's mild Asperger’s, as he said what Ghosn knows, Ford, AMG and Porsche family knows, that you cannot make economically these premium EV cars. Because Porsche BMW, AMG S, Audis Ashton Martin ARE premium, tesla is garbage disguised as premium, with a rather nice battery pack and half descent motors. Model S- I can regard it as premium. Model 3? GARBAGE MAZDA. tell my winter owners.

ONE WORD: ULSAB-AC. Porsche BMW AMG use ULSAB-AC frame and metal steel/alloy tech, BMW added ULSAB-AC with CLAR You get 2000s supercar tech, economically, even in a 3 series. Torsional rigidity and static bend alone exceed for the F30 the Pagani Zonda specs!! hence why BMWs no longer rust since e6x , or rust so slowly that you have time to wait 5 years, be negligent, then do something about it and it is gone. A Honda is holed through. even 40 year old Mercedes I saw in Africa, corroded but slowly. Since premium German makers now use, on average 5-6 kms of body prep and paint line, vs tesla 100m, you get the reason for the rust. And, to start with, the F30 G20 panels are light years metallurgically speaking, ahead of Tesla.

So What? Kruger was right saying that the cars cost 15-20,000$ to make (3 series) and the battery pack is 25,000$! On a 3 series, engine is 6k. 6 cyl, 8k. M3 12 k factory. battery pack, 25k. So they could simply not raise the price of their cars by 15 grand while maintaining engineering quality. Sure, do what Kona does, tin can metal and slap a battery. Ghosn was aware and, before going to prison, signed off a "battery lease scheme" for the Zoe, to keep the price 25,000 euros, and 150 euros per month battery lease...

BMW has been spending on electrification 2 Bn$ annually (more than tesla BTW) as did VAG (porsche) and AMG etc. BMW KNOWS that these battery packs last 6-8 years only and it is deferring the tsunami of lawsuits to the right. BMW has already replaced i3 packs and it knows the same science I study academically- there is only one chemical engineering science, not 3.

I am also torn in not buying another BMW. We need an SUV, but Liquid Li Ion tech gives us -70% range loss in Canadian winters, 200 kms max, and electrical bills go higher than FUEL! we are eyeing the X3 M40i, we will see. And my next ICE, if any,non-SUV would be a legacy 911 or an electric future BMW or Porsche. SOLID STATE ideally, it removed the liquid li ion limitations..

Yes, BMW and Kruger made some mistakes but electrification strategy was not one. In aerospace we have Lithium Ion data for 30 plus years, and we know everything about their life-cycle. If ready to spend 15,000$-20,000$ USD to replace a Model 3 battery year 7 or 8, or to sell it with huge depreciation due to its impedance, BE OUR GUEST

If even Porsche selling the Taycan tells us the disclaimer that EV packs do not last, shelved of driven, is there a reason why we should not listen?

Last edited by Musashi; 12-10-2019 at 07:58 AM..
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      11-30-2019, 10:54 AM   #2518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFNATIK View Post
Its really simple. BMW is the past. Tesla is the future. A king has rein, then he dies.

I love BMW, but they really lost their grip during Harald Kruger's time at the helm. Now that BMW has squandered their lead in electrification after a great start with the i8 and i3, which gave Tesla enough time has step in with their 3 series killer, the Model 3. I'm not sure how BMW will compete in this space as more and more loyal BMW owners move on. There are so many BMW converts over on the Tesla Motors forum. Even some familiar faces from bimmerpost.

This year will be the first time in over 20 years that I will be purchasing something other than a BMW. Although I'm gonna hang onto my F80 and E46 M3, these may be the last BMWs I'll buy for awhile. Just recently I placed an order for a 2020 Model 3 LR AWD Performance sleeper that will run neck and with the new M8 Gran Coupe doing 0-60 in 3 secs flat for 1/3 the price and 95% less maintenance. BMW has nothing that is comparatively quick remotely in this price range so it's time to move on. The future awaits.
Wait, what? Electrification lead? LOL. Honda and Toyota were selling production EV hybrids 15 years ago when BMW was still paying fines to the US EPA for CAFE violations. The i3 entered as an over-priced, carbon fiber dud with 80 miles of range. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, GM and Ford all have a farther lead in "electrification" than BMW does, even in 2020.
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      11-30-2019, 10:59 AM   #2519
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Wait, what? Electrification lead? LOL. Honda and Toyota were selling production EV hybrids 15 years ago when BMW was still paying fines to the US EPA for CAFE violations. The i3 entered as an over-priced, carbon fiber dud with 80 miles of range. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, GM and Ford all have a farther lead in "electrification" than BMW does, even in 2020.
i3 wasn't a dud, it was wildly successful. It was the most selling EV in Europe up until last year, and they sold more i3s than Tesla sold of any model up until the Model 3.

https://thedriven.io/2019/11/27/bmw-...g-over-europe/
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      11-30-2019, 11:14 AM   #2520
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i3 wasn't a dud, it was wildly successful. It was the most selling EV in Europe up until last year, and they sold more i3s than Tesla sold of any model up until the Model 3.

https://thedriven.io/2019/11/27/bmw-...g-over-europe/
In the US, the second largest auto market in the world (largest auto market per capita), it was a dud. Again, while BMW was paying CAFE fines in the US, other companies were selling real EV and EV hybrids. BMW's pre i8 electrification claim to fame was a lead-acid battery converted 2002 circa 1974. I have a GE electric garden tractor older than that.
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      11-30-2019, 11:46 AM   #2521
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
In the US, the second largest auto market in the world (largest auto market per capita), it was a dud. Again, while BMW was paying CAFE fines in the US, other companies were selling real EV and EV hybrids. BMW's pre i8 electrification claim to fame was a lead-acid battery converted 2002 circa 1974. I have a GE electric garden tractor older than that.
I'm pretty sure BMW didn't expect to sell a ton of i3s in the US. And I'm still not sure what your point is. Being first isn't necessarily the best strategy.
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      11-30-2019, 01:08 PM   #2522
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Not surprised i3 didn't sell in the US, doesn't make sense for US

Wish i4 can out range Tesla, sub 4.5 second 0 to 60 is more than plenty
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      11-30-2019, 03:34 PM   #2523
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
In the US, the second largest auto market in the world (largest auto market per capita), it was a dud. Again, while BMW was paying CAFE fines in the US, other companies were selling real EV and EV hybrids. BMW's pre i8 electrification claim to fame was a lead-acid battery converted 2002 circa 1974. I have a GE electric garden tractor older than that.
Circa 2014 i3: Legacy luxury brand RWD EV, Carbon Fiber body, seats 4, advanced driving technology incl ACC, about $50k+. Not a dud. Unique and utilitarian, yes. Cross country traveler, no. A city car for people with surplus income or lease prowess to allow them to not put needless cold start miles on their nicer cars for short trips around town, when street parking, or in heavy traffic times (minimize avoidable collision risk). The i3 is a real star in all those situations.

Circa 2023: Once these i3s to get a little older, can make a real case for this as an inexpensive errand runner, or even family loaner or kid car.
If your complaint is the battery pack and range: give battery technology another 3 or 5 years. Seems almost safe to assume newer technologies of rebuilding and upgrading will be available, and hopefully increased supply and competition. This is a car that should not often get rebuilt from accidents, especially in older years, and lowish remaining ownership rate can benefit from used parts supply.
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      11-30-2019, 04:04 PM   #2524
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Originally Posted by hybris View Post
i3 wasn't a dud, it was wildly successful. It was the most selling EV in Europe up until last year, and they sold more i3s than Tesla sold of any model up until the Model 3.

https://thedriven.io/2019/11/27/bmw-...g-over-europe/
In the US, the second largest auto market in the world (largest auto market per capita), it was a dud. Again, while BMW was paying CAFE fines in the US, other companies were selling real EV and EV hybrids. BMW's pre i8 electrification claim to fame was a lead-acid battery converted 2002 circa 1974. I have a GE electric garden tractor older than that.
Lol I don't care if the i3 was/is a "dud", it's one of the best cars I've ever owned. It's probably still one of the better BEVs for city driving. Not the best range but it's also an old platform. When it came out the other option was the Leaf for goodness sakes. The i4 will be a good replacement but I honestly hope BMW makes a small EV like the i3. I don't really want to drive an electric 3 series.
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      11-30-2019, 07:30 PM   #2525
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I'm pretty sure BMW didn't expect to sell a ton of i3s in the US. And I'm still not sure what your point is. Being first isn't necessarily the best strategy.
I'll state it again, there was no such thing as a BMW lead in electrification with the i8 and i3. BMW is at least a decade behind everyone else. It was paying fines to the EPA when other manufacturers were SELLING electrics. For Christ's sake. The only electric motors BMW was using back then was for the HVAC blower, and they couldn't even get that right. LOL
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      12-01-2019, 12:54 AM   #2526
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I'll state it again, there was no such thing as a BMW lead in electrification with the i8 and i3. BMW is at least a decade behind everyone else. It was paying fines to the EPA when other manufacturers were SELLING electrics. For Christ's sake. The only electric motors BMW was using back then was for the HVAC blower, and they couldn't even get that right. LOL
So how do you define lead exactly? The i3 is among the top selling EVs in Europe, and has been for years. As I am sure you know, it is after all a european brand. The i3 has also been applauded for being an extremely advanced and well made car, to the point of documentaries being made.

The world is more than the US. I'm sure Chevrolet Bolt is a nice car, but I've never seen a Chevrolet Bolt in my life. BMW i3's on the other hand, I can hardly throw a rock without hitting one.

EDIT: Also can't see how you can say they're a decade behind everyone else. Tesla is obviously ahead of everyone else. BMW simply didn't focus on EVs yet because the market isn't big enough to justify it. There's a reason why both BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche haven't been attacking this market until now, and it's not because they don't know how to make cars or don't have the technology - it's because they've chosen not to.

Tesla has helped move the market towards EV faster, and whether we like it or not it's an impressive feat. But there's no reason to doubt that the coming EVs from the big German automakers will be equally impressive (look at the Taycan).
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      12-01-2019, 12:59 AM   #2527
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Two words... Rivian and Taycan
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      12-01-2019, 04:21 AM   #2528
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'll state it again, there was no such thing as a BMW lead in electrification with the i8 and i3. BMW is at least a decade behind everyone else. It was paying fines to the EPA when other manufacturers were SELLING electrics. For Christ's sake. The only electric motors BMW was using back then was for the HVAC blower, and they couldn't even get that right. LOL
So how do you define lead exactly? The i3 is among the top selling EVs in Europe, and has been for years. As I am sure you know, it is after all an european brand. The i3 has also been applauded for being an extremely advanced and well made car, to the point of documentaries being made.

The world is more than the US. I'm sure Chevrolet Bolt is a nice car, but I've never seen a Chevrolet Bolt in my life. BMW i3's on the other hand, I can hardly throw a rock without hitting one.

EDIT: Also can't see how you can say they're a decade behind everyone else. Tesla is obviously ahead of everyone else. BMW simply didn't focus on EVs yet because the market isn't big enough to justify it. There's a reason why both BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche hasn't been attacking this market until now, and it's not because they don't know how to make cars or don't have the technology - it's because they've chosen not to.

Tesla has helped move the market towards EV faster, and whether we like it or not it's an impressive feat. But there's no reason to doubt that the coming EVs from the big German automakers will be less impressive (look at the Taycan).
Well articulated.
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      12-01-2019, 06:53 AM   #2529
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So how do you define lead exactly? The i3 is among the top selling EVs in Europe, and has been for years. As I am sure you know, it is after all a european brand. The i3 has also been applauded for being an extremely advanced and well made car, to the point of documentaries being made.

The world is more than the US. I'm sure Chevrolet Bolt is a nice car, but I've never seen a Chevrolet Bolt in my life. BMW i3's on the other hand, I can hardly throw a rock without hitting one.

EDIT: Also can't see how you can say they're a decade behind everyone else. Tesla is obviously ahead of everyone else. BMW simply didn't focus on EVs yet because the market isn't big enough to justify it. There's a reason why both BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche haven't been attacking this market until now, and it's not because they don't know how to make cars or don't have the technology - it's because they've chosen not to.

Tesla has helped move the market towards EV faster, and whether we like it or not it's an impressive feat. But there's no reason to doubt that the coming EVs from the big German automakers will be equally impressive (look at the Taycan).
My comment was based on this quote from MFNATK: "I love BMW, but they really lost their grip during Harald Kruger's time at the helm. Now that BMW has squandered their lead in electrification after a great start with the i8 and i3, which gave Tesla enough time has step in with their 3 series killer, the Model 3. I'm not sure how BMW will compete in this space as more and more loyal BMW owners move on. There are so many BMW converts over on the Tesla Motors forum. Even some familiar faces from bimmerpost."

Development time table of modern electric cars production release including hybrids:
1996 GM EV1
1997 Toyota Prius
1999 Honda Insight
2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Nissan Leaf
2012 Tesla Model S
2014 BMW i3
2015 BMW i8
2016 Chevrolet Bolt
2017 Tesla Model 3

The i3 had an 81 mile EV range, just 8 miles more than the half-as-expensive and 4-year older Nissian Leaf. The Bolt released 31 months later had a range of 238 miles. The i8 is, well no one really knows what it is, other than expensive, sort of fast coupe with no luggage space. I call the i3 a dud because of all the hype BMW spewed about its "light weight" (carbon fiber) body on (aluminum) frame architecture, which is expensive to manufacture, didn't result in a very high range performance per vehicle weight ratio; the Chevy Bolt released just 31 months later, morphs the i3 range to weight ratio. Compare the i3 hybrid to the Volt and it's comical. For all of BMW's vaulted engineering prowess; neither the i8 nor i3 are engineering marvels as BMW hyped them to be.

While Toyota, Honda, and GM were selling hybrids; albeit the GM EV1 limited to leases in So. Cal and the Toyota based on 1970's hybrid technology first developed by the American auto parts supplier TRW, BMW was paying CAFE violation fines:
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-01-2019 at 10:13 AM..
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      12-01-2019, 07:36 AM   #2530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hybris View Post
So how do you define lead exactly? The i3 is among the top selling EVs in Europe, and has been for years. As I am sure you know, it is after all a european brand. The i3 has also been applauded for being an extremely advanced and well made car, to the point of documentaries being made.

The world is more than the US. I'm sure Chevrolet Bolt is a nice car, but I've never seen a Chevrolet Bolt in my life. BMW i3's on the other hand, I can hardly throw a rock without hitting one.

EDIT: Also can't see how you can say they're a decade behind everyone else. Tesla is obviously ahead of everyone else. BMW simply didn't focus on EVs yet because the market isn't big enough to justify it. There's a reason why both BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche haven't been attacking this market until now, and it's not because they don't know how to make cars or don't have the technology - it's because they've chosen not to.

Tesla has helped move the market towards EV faster, and whether we like it or not it's an impressive feat. But there's no reason to doubt that the coming EVs from the big German automakers will be equally impressive (look at the Taycan).
My comment was based on this quote from MFNATK: "I love BMW, but they really lost their grip during Harald Kruger's time at the helm. Now that BMW has squandered their lead in electrification after a great start with the i8 and i3, which gave Tesla enough time has step in with their 3 series killer, the Model 3. I'm not sure how BMW will compete in this space as more and more loyal BMW owners move on. There are so many BMW converts over on the Tesla Motors forum. Even some familiar faces from bimmerpost."

Development time table of modern electric cars production release including hybrids:
1996 GM EV1
1997 Toyota Prius
1999 Honda Insight
2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Nissan Leaf
2012 Tesla Model S
2014 BMW i3
2015 BMW i8
2016 Chevrolet Bolt
2017 Tesla Model 3

The i3 had an 81 mile EV range, just 8 miles more than the half-as-expensive and 4-year old Nissian Leaf. The Bolt released 31 months later had a range of 238 miles. The i8 is, well no one really knows what it is, other than expensive, sort of fast coupe with no luggage space. I call the i3 a dud because of all the hype BMW spewed about its "light weight" (carbon fiber) body on (aluminum) frame architecture, which is expensive to manufacture, didn't result in a very high range performance per vehicle weight ratio; the Chevy Bolt released just 31 months later, morphs the i3 range to weight ratio. Compare the i3 hybrid to the Volt and it's comical. For all of BMW's vaulted engineering prowess; neither the i8 nor i3 are engineering marvels as BMW hyped them to be.

While Toyota, Honda, and GM were selling hybrids; albeit the GM EV1 limited to leases in So. Cal and the Toyota based on 1970's hybrid technology first developed by the American auto parts supplier TRW, BMW was paying CAFE violation fines:
The i8 is a lawnmower in a supercar body

I laugh when I see Scandinavians go on and on about how electric cars are everywhere and are "taking" over the world. The population of Norway is 5 million people and they are being "forced" to use EVs by their governments. I live outside NY city where the population is 5 times that. I see 1 Tesla for every 100 ICE cars. Not a good ratio IMO.
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