BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Off-Topic Discussions Board Politics/Religion Are All BMW Drivers Leftist?

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-24-2019, 11:57 AM   #45
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2175
Rep
4,501
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
The problem is government is by definition "not efficient", because simply that is not their priorities whether they admit it or not. They have other priorities that are higher than efficiency. You could say they don't really care about "efficiency" simply they don't care about making money.
I'm not talking about the efficiency of the operations itself, I'm talking about how the operation of mass/public transit has on the efficiency of transportation as a whole. And that it has an overall increase. That contributes to goods and people being moved more efficiently allowing commerce to occur at increased rates.

Again, allowing the whole system to operate more efficiently allows a higher level of productivity which is a net positive to the economy.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:06 PM   #46
WestRace
Major
594
Rep
1,081
Posts

Drives: E46 M3, E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angels, Ca.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
I'm not talking about the efficiency of the operations itself, I'm talking about how the operation of mass/public transit has on the efficiency of transportation as a whole. And that it has an overall increase. That contributes to goods and people being moved more efficiently allowing commerce to occur at increased rates.

Again, allowing the whole system to operate more efficiently allows a higher level of productivity which is a net positive to the economy.
In theory you're correct. I think public transportation such as subways ... would work in places such as New York because their businesses are more concentrated. But in places such as Los Angeles for example, it would be impossible to build a efficient, cost effective public transportation since the place is so big and businesses are so spread out that it's just not practical so people will end up using their own automobiles. I personally wouldn't want to wait for a bus here in Los Angles at night.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:09 PM   #47
WestRace
Major
594
Rep
1,081
Posts

Drives: E46 M3, E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angels, Ca.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
The new york subway offers over 5 million rides per day (so simply 2,5 million dual way). Any idea what a parking garage for 2,5 million cars would look like?
All I need in my garage are the Ferrari 458 Speciale, BMW M3 CSL, Acura NSX, Mazda RX7, and Lamborghini Countach. I would use the Porsche 918 as my daily lols.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:12 PM   #48
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2175
Rep
4,501
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
In theory you're correct. I think public transportation such as subways ... would work in places such as New York because their businesses are more concentrated. But in places such as Los Angeles for example, it would be impossible to build a efficient, cost effective public transportation since the place is so big and businesses are so spread out that it's just not practical so people will end up using their own automobiles. I personally wouldn't want to wait for a bus here in Los Angles at night.
Public transportation is how urban centers function. Whether that be trains, subways, or buses. The traffic in LA is already horrible Removing mass transit would make it even worse.

LA has subways too.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:29 PM   #49
WestRace
Major
594
Rep
1,081
Posts

Drives: E46 M3, E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angels, Ca.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Public transportation is how urban centers function. Whether that be trains, subways, or buses. The traffic in LA is already horrible Removing mass transit would make it even worse.
I am not arguing that LA traffics not are terrible. It's just that it's not possible to build a public system for the entire greater LA area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
LA has subways too.
It only serves the small downtown area, but Los Angles and Orange Country are so big that as I said, there is no such subway system that can be built for the entire area.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:36 PM   #50
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2175
Rep
4,501
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

How does any of that counter what I'm saying?
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:39 PM   #51
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2880
Rep
4,305
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Umm, no.

Um yes if your taking away capital, labor, and production just to waste it inefficiently it negative growth as all of the above could have been used to generate more growth.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:39 PM   #52
WestRace
Major
594
Rep
1,081
Posts

Drives: E46 M3, E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angels, Ca.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
How does any of that counter what I'm saying?
I think you sort of saying public transportation comes first then businesses are then built around it later.

I am saying it's the other way around.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:40 PM   #53
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2880
Rep
4,305
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Public transportation is how urban centers function. Whether that be trains, subways, or buses. The traffic in LA is already horrible Removing mass transit would make it even worse.

LA has subways too.
If the potential profit is there then people would invest in it, they issue is the local government will make the start up too costly to bother investing
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 12:50 PM   #54
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2175
Rep
4,501
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Umm, no.

Um yes if your taking away capital, labor, and production just to waste it inefficiently it negative growth as all of the above could have been used to generate more growth.
Growth of what? The transportation industry in general?

Because the economy as a whole benefits from more productivity and mass transit enables that.

The government doesn't build the buses or trains. The workers that drive them, maintain them, all have jobs and spend that money in the local economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
How does any of that counter what I'm saying?
I think you sort of saying public transportation comes first then businesses are then built around it later.

I am saying it's the other way around.
No, that's not what I'm saying, at all.

I'm actually agreeing with you.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 01:04 PM   #55
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2880
Rep
4,305
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Growth of what? The transportation industry in general?

Because the economy as a whole benefits from more productivity and mass transit enables that.

The government doesn't build the buses or trains. The workers that drive them, maintain them, all have jobs and spend that money in the local economy.



No, that's not what I'm saying, at all.

I'm actually agreeing with you.
How does the government pay for. those buses and train, they have to take it from another part of the economy which is more efficent to subsidize an inefficient part of the economy
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 01:20 PM   #56
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2175
Rep
4,501
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
How does the government pay for. those buses and train, they have to take it from another part of the economy which is more efficent to subsidize an inefficient part of the economy
So is your argument that it isn't that mass transit is inefficient, it's just that it needs to be privatized?


Privatization does not necessarily equal efficiency. Do you have any idea how much the government subsidizes our agriculture industry?
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 02:28 PM   #57
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2880
Rep
4,305
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
So is your argument that it isn't that mass transit is inefficient, it's just that it needs to be privatized?


Privatization does not necessarily equal efficiency. Do you have any idea how much the government subsidizes our agriculture industry?
The government meddling is what results in them subsidizing industries because they are generally the root cause of expense. Example NJ farmer are cripple due to the insane property tax rates and regulations which then the government subsidize the farms to avoid the land being bought out and repurpose as a mall.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 03:30 PM   #58
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2175
Rep
4,501
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
So is your argument that it isn't that mass transit is inefficient, it's just that it needs to be privatized?


Privatization does not necessarily equal efficiency. Do you have any idea how much the government subsidizes our agriculture industry?
The government meddling is what results in them subsidizing industries because they are generally the root cause of expense. Example NJ farmer are cripple due to the insane property tax rates and regulations which then the government subsidize the farms to avoid the land being bought out and repurpose as a mall.
That wasn't my question. Is mass transit ok as long as it's privatized?

So what's the excuse for Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, etc?
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 05:45 PM   #59
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2880
Rep
4,305
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
That wasn't my question. Is mass transit ok as long as it's privatized?

So what's the excuse for Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, etc?
Yes, mass transit is fine if it privatized, NYC subway system demonstrates this, it was the best in the world and maintain extremely well until the city took it over because of a rate hike which the city proceeded to say they will never increase the rate... several decades later they broke that promise and the system is a horrible mess.
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 05:46 PM   #60
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2175
Rep
4,501
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

And you think if it stayed private, the rates would have never increased?
Appreciate 0
      02-24-2019, 08:51 PM   #61
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2880
Rep
4,305
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
And you think if it stayed private, the rates would have never increased?
I believe the rates will increase to what the market will bear and would have kept the system in far superior shape then it currently is right now.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2019, 02:17 AM   #62
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
1348
Rep
2,403
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

The goal for public transportation (as seen from the government), is also to keep the roads open. So that other companies and society can function. A goal like that is hugely benefitting the economy.
But...you can be sure that a private transportation company wil NEVER have that goal.
They will arrange that public transportation in a way that its maximizes profit. Benefitting the local economy by keeping the roads as empty as possible has absolutely no priority.
So its not at all as simple as you see it.
A city has a huge interest in that the local economy is high (less unemployment, more taxes, less crime etc). A private company has absolutely no interest as their only interest is profit.
Therefore it is best that some services arent privatized and stay in the hands of the government. Arguably also the road network. Making everything a toll road also has huge drawbacks.
And the police force and the militairy are also examples for that.
Hugely inefficient, but still far far better than privatized.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers | Sachs performance clutch
Appreciate 1
Jockey2175.00

      02-25-2019, 02:54 AM   #63
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
5070
Rep
7,487
Posts

Drives: HS M2 Competition
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands/ Lilyhammer, Norway

iTrader: (0)

In short:I'm European, I'm no leftist, never was,not even in adolescense, never will be, just self employed.
I think the 'left' is killing Europe/EU and eventually 'the world'.

And all those ex BMW drivers I know who now drive highly subsidized Teslas(almost no taxes overhere) I call champagne socialists. And they are the worst socialists in my book.

My car costs more than €100k to begin with, overhere because of our semi commie government and CO2 taxes, while in Belgium and Germany they cost about starting from €60k. And they are neighbouring countries.

Cheers
Robin
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2019, 04:15 AM   #64
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2880
Rep
4,305
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
The goal for public transportation (as seen from the government), is also to keep the roads open. So that other companies and society can function. A goal like that is hugely benefitting the economy.
But...you can be sure that a private transportation company wil NEVER have that goal.
They will arrange that public transportation in a way that its maximizes profit. Benefitting the local economy by keeping the roads as empty as possible has absolutely no priority.
So its not at all as simple as you see it.
A city has a huge interest in that the local economy is high (less unemployment, more taxes, less crime etc). A private company has absolutely no interest as their only interest is profit.
Therefore it is best that some services arent privatized and stay in the hands of the government. Arguably also the road network. Making everything a toll road also has huge drawbacks.
And the police force and the militairy are also examples for that.
Hugely inefficient, but still far far better than privatized.
If that the goal, NYC, DC, and Philly they horrible failed at it. Appears you should have left it in the private sector hands.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2019, 04:48 AM   #65
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
1348
Rep
2,403
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Appears you should have left it in the private sector hands.
A private owned company has none of these goals, so your argument is invalid.
And thats the same reason why things like militairy and police (and imho also intellegence sector) should never be privatized. The goals that they serve simply dont match up with those of a private company.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers | Sachs performance clutch
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2019, 09:19 AM   #66
NormanConquest
Brigadier General
2880
Rep
4,305
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
A private owned company has none of these goals, so your argument is invalid.
And thats the same reason why things like militairy and police (and imho also intellegence sector) should never be privatized. The goals that they serve simply dont match up with those of a private company.
All you blabber about for three pages has been your personal 'feeling' which is invalided when I already mention multiple historical comparision to reinforce my point of view.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:41 AM.




bmw
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST