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      05-31-2007, 11:13 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Simple.

First of all Allah created women as partners for men. He has strictly prohibited homosexuality. I'm sure you know what happened to such nations that engage in homosexuality. Remember what happened to Sodom? Its all in the Quran and the Quran agrees with what archaeologists have discovered. If you want proof, thats no problem, check the links below...

Second of all, when men and women get married, they can then have children and the human race goes on and on...

Thirdly, it could again be seen as a test. I mean lots of men cannot resist the temptation of looking at women and some even go so far as to rape them. It's a horrible world we live in. Islam creates strict limits so that these things dont happen. I mean, when people look they then want to touch etc. you see what I mean? that is why Allah says we shouldnt look at women but when the time is right, we should look for a suitable partner. That partner would be with you for the rest of your life, you would have a family etc, and the human race would go on and on...

Video:
Perished Nations Part 1 -

Perished Nations Part 2 -


PDF format:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/d...d.php?id=14453
(Download from this link)
Those are not answers. At the most, they reflect a purely human retrospective explanation based on current values rooted in human logic, human insecurities, human fears, and human prejudices.

What is wrong with homosexuality on a "devine" or "creator's" level? And moreover, homosexuality assumes that there are 2 sexes and one of them "misbehaves." If there is only one gender and its members engage in sex as a life-continuation activity, it's not really homosexuality. But, evolution doesn't stop with one gender -- organisms develop into more complex structures with division of reproductive functions.

"Woman is a companion for man." That is so childish and again, a pure hindsight. At the time of "creation," it would be perfectly fine to have men as companions for other men.

And why can't men look at women and touch them, and in general enjoy the use of their sex organs to the fullest extent?? A few real answers:

- Prevention of STDs
- Prevention of violence and mantaining order in society
- Considering a sexual partner as one's "tangible property"
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      05-31-2007, 12:04 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Those are not answers. At the most, they reflect a purely human retrospective explanation based on current values rooted in human logic, human insecurities, human fears, and human prejudices.
Then again, so do the questions themselves.
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      05-31-2007, 12:23 PM   #333
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If there is only one gender and its members engage in sex as a life-continuation activity, it's not really homosexuality.

The fact is that Allah created male and female humans. He created us with reproductive organs so that:

a) we would be able to reproduce and continue the human race
b) for sexual pleasure amongst husbands and wives. Yes, Islam encourages sex between husband and wives to create a feeling of love and happiness, and because it is a natural feeling. But there are limits of course. For example, we should have extra-marital or pre-marital relationships. These are simple boundaries because they keep our heart pure and clean. Allah teaches us modesty to stop us from trangressing these boundaries and limits...

"Woman is a companion for man." That is so childish and again.

If we assume for a moment that Allah is our god (he is ours, but lets assume you believe in him too) and also assume that he created male and female sexs for the above reasons, then why should we seek homosexual relationships? You said at the time of creation it would be lawful to have male companions. This would be acceptable if Allah made it that way! but he didnt.

If I make a table, but you use it as a chair, then the obvious problem is your body weight could damage it, it would be uncomfortable etc. But at the time of creation if I said "This is a chair", then of course it would be permissable to use it as a chair, BUT bear in mind I would make it more in the form of chair if this was the case. For comfort reasons etc. Now lets think about god, if god wanted homosexual relations to exist he would infact make it so that males could reproduce between them etc. but infact he didnt. Allah created men and women for the above reasons...
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      05-31-2007, 12:34 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
If I make a table, but you use it as a chair, then the obvious problem is your body weight could damage it, it would be uncomfortable etc. But at the time of creation if I said "This is a chair", then of course it would be permissable to use it as a chair, BUT bear in mind I would make it more in the form of chair if this was the case.
ok, now it makes sense to me: homosexuals use their sex organs as a chair although they were intended to be used as a table. I can see logic here.
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      05-31-2007, 12:39 PM   #335
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One more for HKS: why does Allah approve of polygamy for men? Why such inequality between two genders?
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      05-31-2007, 12:51 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
ok, now it makes sense to me: homosexuals use their sex organs as a chair although they were intended to be used as a table. I can see logic here.
Allah created everything with a purpose. There are many reasons for male-female relationships. For example, reproduction - the human race can continue. THIS is one of the main reasons. Allah didnt make it possible for two males or two females to be able to reproduce between them, but it is possible in male-female relationships...
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      05-31-2007, 12:51 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
One more for HKS: why does Allah approve of polygamy for men? Why such inequality between two genders?
Many reasons. See here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/polygamy.htm
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      05-31-2007, 01:03 PM   #338
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> First of all Allah created women as partners for men.

No, Woman must have been first. That makes men the partners for women.

Allah could have made man first, but he would have had to violate his own creation to do it.

Plus, to create woman from man, he would have to add to it implying something is missing from man (which also happens to be the case)

> if god wanted homosexual relations to exist he would infact make it so that males could reproduce between them etc.

You don't quite understand homosexuality, do you?

I'm not sure you will understand this, but lesbians and gays are just attracted to the same sex in exactly the same way you are attracted to the opposite sex.

Imagine being told you are a sick bastard because you are attracted to women!

These are not filthy perverts. They are also not going against nature because there isn't a species of mammal alive that does not have a significant percentage of homosexual individuals.

If you believe in natural selection, having a homosexual uncle or aunt increases your advantage. This is the reason homosexual individuals are still born eventhough at first glance you would assume the trait to become extinct. Instead there's an additional relative that expands resources on you rather than their own offspring.

> why does Allah approve of polygamy for men? Why such inequality between two genders?

If Allah approved of polygamy, he would not have made it so human females have hidden ovulation.

Did you know that humans are pretty much the only species where you can't tell that they've ovulated and are fertile?
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      05-31-2007, 01:07 PM   #339
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Max, welcome back! I thought we lost you in this thread!
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      05-31-2007, 01:10 PM   #340
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I have to confess here: I understand that homosexuality is fine among species in wild nature, and accept it as such, but I do not support it in human society. Yes, it's a bit arbitrary, but so are many of social laws.
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      05-31-2007, 01:47 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
No, Woman must have been first. That makes men the partners for women.

Allah could have made man first, but he would have had to violate his own creation to do it.
Why must woman have come first? Even in an evolutionary model, there is no requirement that when speciation occurs the female of the new species exist first.

Quote:
You don't quite understand homosexuality, do you?

I'm not sure you will understand this, but lesbians and gays are just attracted to the same sex in exactly the same way you are attracted to the opposite sex.

Imagine being told you are a sick bastard because you are attracted to women!

These are not filthy perverts. They are also not going against nature because there isn't a species of mammal alive that does not have a significant percentage of homosexual individuals.

If you believe in natural selection, having a homosexual uncle or aunt increases your advantage. This is the reason homosexual individuals are still born eventhough at first glance you would assume the trait to become extinct. Instead there's an additional relative that expands resources on you rather than their own offspring.
I am not sure you understand homosexuality either. You presume that homosexuality is purely a genetic characteristic that could/would be cleansed from the gene pool. The latest research, in fact, seems to show that while there may be a genetic component to homosexuality, differences in prenatal hormonal levels more likely play a more determinant role.

I am also not sure you understand the nature of sin either. An innate and seemingly natural desire to do something does not make it the right thing to do. There may well be a genetic, physiological, or environmental predisposition to pedophilia but the existence of that predisposition would not alter the sinful nature of acting on that impulse.
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      05-31-2007, 02:15 PM   #342
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Sin = a violation of a moral (or social) norm, created by humans for the purpose of orderly living as a group in a society, where a sanction for that violation includes a punishment by a made-up super-natural entity from whom a violator allegedly cannot either escape or conceal the violation.

Purpose of the concept of sin = to improve enforcement of social or moral norms based on an assumption that the violator will experience fear of being punished no matter how carefully the violation is executed or later concealed.

Major premise: yes, there is no proof of an omnipotent super-natural creature. But, there is also no proof of the opposite. So, dear violators, there is a 50/50 risk ...
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      05-31-2007, 03:31 PM   #343
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I found someone today who has heard of "Allah."

I'm not sure if it is correct or not........but here it is.

He told me that Allah is the Lord of Hindu.
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      05-31-2007, 03:44 PM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y View Post
I found someone today who has heard of "Allah."

I'm not sure if it is correct or not........but here it is.

He told me that Allah is the Lord of Hindu.
"...Allah is the Lord of Hindu"

FUCK NO
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      06-01-2007, 08:40 AM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y View Post
I found someone today who has heard of "Allah."

I'm not sure if it is correct or not........but here it is.

He told me that Allah is the Lord of Hindu.
I have already proved that roughly 19% of the world is muslim, therefore you are by FAR wrong when you say 98% of the world has not even heard of Allah. So what are you trying to prove now?
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      06-01-2007, 11:59 AM   #346
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> Why must woman have come first? Even in an evolutionary model, there is no requirement that when speciation occurs the female of the new species exist first.

I like you, you're smart.
Genisis doesn't speak of speciation. It says God created Man and then, from a part of man, a woman. You cannot create a fertile woman from a man, but you can do the opposite.

If you believe in creationism, since religion is mostly male-dominated, it would make sense for them to change the order even if they knew the opposite to be true.

If you believe in natural evolution from single-celled organisms, then there's an common unisex or sexless lifeform from which both males and females evolved. Neither one or the other must be first... Even so, the base form of many organisms is female and become male by a trigger.

> differences in prenatal hormonal levels more likely play a more determinant role.

Hormone levels in the mothers' blood during pregnancy are largely determined by her genetic makeup. To drag this away from genetics you would need an external influence - eating lots of US hormone-soaked beef perhaps.

> I am also not sure you understand the nature of sin either

Sin is a religious concept. I understand it but I don't believe in god so I don't believe in sin either. Doesn't make most 'sinful' acts less wrong though.

> An innate and seemingly natural desire to do something does not make it the right thing to do.

I don't disagree with that, but it doesn't necessarily make it wrong either.

> There may well be a genetic, physiological, or environmental predisposition to pedophilia but the existence of that predisposition would not alter the sinful nature of acting on that impulse.

Sinful implies punishment by god and/or the possibility of forgiveness. I would probably use the term immoral instead.

> He told me that Allah is the Lord of Hindu.

I think that's Vishnu...

> I have already proved that roughly 19% of the world is muslim

You have problems with the word 'prove'.

Natureboy offered what's called anecdotal evidence, not proof.

You've proclaimed a number, proclamation is also not proof.

See also: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof
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      06-02-2007, 11:51 AM   #347
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You have problems with the word 'prove'.

I dont. I just didnt think at the time. The point is that by saying 98% of the world's population DON'T know Allah, you are talking rubbish!
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      06-04-2007, 08:47 AM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> Genisis doesn't speak of speciation. It says God created Man and then, from a part of man, a woman. You cannot create a fertile woman from a man, but you can do the opposite.

If you believe in creationism, since religion is mostly male-dominated, it would make sense for them to change the order even if they knew the opposite to be true.

If you believe in natural evolution from single-celled organisms, then there's an common unisex or sexless lifeform from which both males and females evolved. Neither one or the other must be first... Even so, the base form of many organisms is female and become male by a trigger.
I know that Genesis does not speak of speciation. It tells of God creating man from the clay of the ground. Clearly in this scenario, God is not subject to the physical limitations you wish to impose on whether He created man or woman first. If man can come from clay, which to the best of my knowledge would have no human genetic information, He surely could make a woman from a man.

Quote:
Hormone levels in the mothers' blood during pregnancy are largely determined by her genetic makeup. To drag this away from genetics you would need an external influence - eating lots of US hormone-soaked beef perhaps.
There are a myriad of environmental factors that could contribute to a woman's hormonal levels.

Quote:
Sin is a religious concept. I understand it but I don't believe in god so I don't believe in sin either. Doesn't make most 'sinful' acts less wrong though.
I believe your original comment was made in a religious context. If you wish to use "immoral" or "wrong" in place of "sin," the same point applies.
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      06-04-2007, 12:25 PM   #349
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> If man can come from clay, which to the best of my knowledge would have no human genetic information, He surely could make a woman from a man.

True, but why break his own rules?

I mean, there's no reason why god would have made man first.

As probability goes, it's far more likely for someone to change the order in scripture along the way than for god to break his own rules.

> There are a myriad of environmental factors that could contribute to a woman's hormonal levels.

True, but the hormonal response to those environmental factors is largely genetically determined.

It's hard - but not impossible - get away from genetic influence.

I wouldn't be surprised if, some time in the future, you can buy pregnancy medication that (claims to) prevent homosexuality. The pope would probably endorse it.
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      06-04-2007, 12:34 PM   #350
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True, but why break his own rules?

To show that God is all-powerful. Remember that Prophet Isa (AS) had no father? i.e a virgin birth, well that is to show that Allah can make anything possible...
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      06-04-2007, 12:56 PM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> If man can come from clay, which to the best of my knowledge would have no human genetic information, He surely could make a woman from a man.

True, but why break his own rules?

I mean, there's no reason why god would have made man first.

As probability goes, it's far more likely for someone to change the order in scripture along the way than for god to break his own rules.
The Bible is full of incidents of God breaking His own rules, they are often referred to as miracles. I believe you are mistaken to assume that God, a metaphysical being, is bound by the limitations of the physical world.

Quote:
True, but the hormonal response to those environmental factors is largely genetically determined.

It's hard - but not impossible - get away from genetic influence.

I wouldn't be surprised if, some time in the future, you can buy pregnancy medication that (claims to) prevent homosexuality. The pope would probably endorse it.
There is a huge difference between genetic influence and genetic determination.

I am not sure why you believe the Pope would approve of such a product.
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      06-04-2007, 01:19 PM   #352
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I believe you are mistaken to assume that God, a metaphysical being, is bound by the limitations of the physical world.

Muslims too believe that Allah is not restricted by limitations and can make anything possible...
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