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      10-17-2007, 04:10 PM   #463
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I never mentioned John 3:16, even if I do like it personally.

Jesus was a unique individual (monogenes), capable of being born without the intervention of a man's seed, pure without sin, able to resist the temptations of the Devil for 40 days, and forgive first those who hung him on a tree to die.
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      10-17-2007, 05:17 PM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
I never mentioned John 3:16, even if I do like it personally.
Yeah I know you didnt mention it but it puts so much doubt in how much faith we can put in Johns Gospel. His Gospel isnt even grouped with the other 3...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
Jesus was a unique individual (monogenes), capable of being born without the intervention of a man's seed,
Capable of being born withouth the intervention of a man's seed? but Adam (AS) had no father OR mother. Also, many prophets had miracles occur in their lives so that miracles doesnt prove anything. Jesus (AS) even testified that false prophets could perform miracles so to fool the most learned men...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
pure without sin, able to resist the temptations of the Devil for 40 days,
The ability to resist the devil for 40 days doesnt prove anything either since we muslims are supposed to do that for 30 days every year. Infact some manage to do it all year round every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
and forgive first those who hung him on a tree to die.

Also, regarding the abilitiy to forgive, here is one hadith from the Holy Prophet (SAW):

“A true believer is one with whom others feel secure. One who returns love for hatred.”
- The Holy Prophet (SAW)


Clearly none of the attributes prove anything above prophethood
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      10-17-2007, 05:26 PM   #465
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Did the words "forgive them, they know not what they do" come from an other prophets as they were nailed to a tree to die? During your 30 days, are you shown all the kingdoms of the world, without food or water the whole time?

Jesus shares in our humanity yet resists the baser parts, and then we get to share in his divinity.
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      10-17-2007, 06:17 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Did the words "forgive them, they know not what they do" come from an other prophets as they were nailed to a tree to die?
Well that's unfair right from the start. We dont believe any other prophet to have been put on the cross, so we cant give a comparison for that. However, I have shown you a hadith where the Holy Prophet TEACHES the same beliefs as Jesus (AS).

Surely Jesus (AS) didnt encounter every single event as prophets before him, but that doesnt mean he wont teach the same things as prophets before him. For example, Jesus (AS) wasnt told to sacrifice a son like Abraham (AS), but he still teaches us to sacrifice anything for the will of God. The Holy Prophet (SAW) has taught this too despite not being in the same event...

I rest my case on the fact that the teachings are the same, this is what it all really comes down to. Teachings and beliefs we should have. Look at the world today, what is morally acceptable today (despite us thinking we have laws that we think are based on good morals) will not be acceptable in 20 years. This is because ethics change all the time. Even the word Ethics comes from the greek word "ethos" which means "customary", in other words based on tradition...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
During your 30 days, are you shown all the kingdoms of the world, without food or water the whole time?
No, but the Holy Prophet (SAW) had been without food or water for long periods of time not even during the month of Ramadan. In thoe periods of time he still had to hold the community together and carry out Allah's work. We also believe our Holy Prophet (SAW) ascended to heaven during his lifetime, thus seeing the kingdom. Therefore, you still havent proved anything beyond prophethood
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      10-18-2007, 08:35 AM   #467
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Jesus' forgiveness is different from you forgiving me because i punched you in the face and stole your ipod. when Jesus said "your sins are forgiven", in one instance, he was saying that to a prostitute. what sin did the prostitute commit against Jesus? none. her sins were against God for leading an immoral life and Jesus forgave her for that AS IF HE WAS GOD HIMSELF.

this is revolutionary, which caused the Jewish priests to go nuts over such a statement. they were PISSED OFF! "who is this guy who can pardon someone for their sins?!"

here's the truth, and this is something you can agree on too, i'm sure. Jesus, as described in the Bible, cannot be a prophet, but not God. He can't be a great moral teacher, but not God. with all the claims he made about himself, and the things he did, he was either a lunatic, or He is the living God.
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      10-18-2007, 10:33 AM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
Jesus' forgiveness is different from you forgiving me because i punched you in the face and stole your ipod. when Jesus said "your sins are forgiven", in one instance, he was saying that to a prostitute. what sin did the prostitute commit against Jesus? none. her sins were against God for leading an immoral life and Jesus forgave her for that AS IF HE WAS GOD HIMSELF.
I'm afraid this is more confusing. "As if he was God himself?" Isnt Jesus supposed to be part of the trinity? according to Christianity he IS God, so that would be sinning against God

Allah says it the Quran that your sins are your own loss, God loses no power or majesty. Our sins are but against our own souls. Anyway, If Jesus really forgave sins, I see no problem with that. The reason I see no problem with it is because Jesus (AS) has made it very clear that he was sent by God to complete work given to him, he has also testified that he isnt acting of his own will but GOD'S will, so thus his authority is GIVEN to him by God. He isnt God at all.

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
John (5:30)


If we look at what Jesus (AS) is actually saying, we will see that he is judging between people as he is told by God! This means that when he is forgiving people, he is only acting as God has instructed him. Clearly he is not God but a great messenger of Allah!

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
here's the truth, and this is something you can agree on too, i'm sure. Jesus, as described in the Bible, cannot be a prophet, but not God. He can't be a great moral teacher, but not God. with all the claims he made about himself, and the things he did, he was either a lunatic, or He is the living God.
That is very unfair friend. How can you just give the choice a) lunatic or b) God? Jesus did not even CLAIM divinity in the Bible. There is not one single unequivocal statement in the Bible where he testfies to be God or asks people to worship him. Instead, he tells us not to even call him good! How can we say he is God when he didnt even claim it himself?

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
Mark (10:18)
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      10-18-2007, 11:38 AM   #469
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i absolutely hate how you misquote scripture and make it mean what YOU want it to mean.

Quote:
The Rich Young Man

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'[d]"

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."


28Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!"

29"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."
now what do you think his statement to that man actually meant?

just in case you don't get it, Jesus was pointing out to him that no man will be "good" enough on his own to inherit eternal life. it was a rhetorical question.
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      10-18-2007, 11:44 AM   #470
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continuation...

why does it have to specifically say "Jesus is God" in order for us to make that inference?

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusisgod.htm

read it, it's short and simple.

and you have to make a choice, because you can't claim a person is dumb and smart at the same time. a true prophet would never claim that he's God.
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      10-18-2007, 12:26 PM   #471
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I can't quote the exact words, but hanging on the cross Jesus told the one who repented on the cross that he and Jesus would be sitting with his father (God) that afternoon
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      10-18-2007, 04:18 PM   #472
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I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I will make one point. Without religion the world would be devoid of morality altogether.
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      10-18-2007, 05:35 PM   #473
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If morality didn't exist outside of religion, it would just be another religion. While HK and I might differ on our religious views, probably all three of us share a great deal of moral values, don't you think?
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      10-18-2007, 05:57 PM   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
i absolutely hate how you misquote scripture and make it mean what YOU want it to mean.

now what do you think his statement to that man actually meant?

just in case you don't get it, Jesus was pointing out to him that no man will be "good" enough on his own to inherit eternal life. it was a rhetorical question.
Thanks for giving the context, I've already seen it though. Friend, before jumping down my throat, consider that this isnt what my whole argument rests on. I have shown you many many verses where Jesus (AS) shows he cannot be God. Instead of hating, try open your heart even though you admitted you've chosen your path...

Look at what you highlighted:

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."


I agree, with man you have no certainties for anything. In other words, those who worship MAN it is impossible to be saved. Christians testify that Jesus is a man and pray in his name Not just Christians, many people have claims divinity though they are clearly human.

Also, of course only with God can things be possible, therefore you must follow his prophets. I still cant see anything proving his godhood in what you're showing. Jesus (AS) clearly didnt let someone call him good. It was a direct and humble question put across to Jesus (AS), yet you are saying the response was "rhetorical". How can you say EVEN rhetorically that God ISNT good?
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      10-18-2007, 06:06 PM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
continuation...

why does it have to specifically say "Jesus is God" in order for us to make that inference?

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusisgod.htm

read it, it's short and simple.

and you have to make a choice, because you can't claim a person is dumb and smart at the same time. a true prophet would never claim that he's God.
Yeah I read it, I dont see any proof of his godhood...

We have to make a choice? bro the question isnt "Is Jesus God or not?" the first question is "Did he claim to be God?"...He clearly didnt. We cant make claims that Jesus (AS) didnt even make for himself.

Also, please reply to my response to your points:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=208
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      10-18-2007, 06:12 PM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
If morality didn't exist outside of religion, it would just be another religion. While HK and I might differ on our religious views, probably all three of us share a great deal of moral values, don't you think?
Yep exactly. I believe that all world religions do promote peaceful messages. They might not be correct, but they share common grounds of not murdering raping etc. Therefore, without religion you end up losing morality...

I mean, where I'm from, the number of drinkers just keeps increasing and a top doctor admitted yesterday that there are very few peope who dont drink anymore, most of them are muslim.
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      10-18-2007, 08:43 PM   #477
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i thought i'd give it a try again but i am yet reminded of why i stopped responding to you hks.
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      10-19-2007, 03:55 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
i thought i'd give it a try again but i am yet reminded of why i stopped responding to you hks.
The whole point of dialogue is to have a point-by-point discussion. Lets not forget you have accused me before of showing out-of-context quotes and even when they are put back in context, my point is still valid.
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      10-20-2007, 09:39 PM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I can't quote the exact words, but hanging on the cross Jesus told the one who repented on the cross that he and Jesus would be sitting with his father (God) that afternoon
I'm not too sure what you mean by this. It is interesting because I cant remember it at all. I'll look it up

Maybe you mean that it's showing he is the Son of God? I'm really unsure. But of course metaphorically Jesus is the Son of God. So is anyone that is righteous, even Paul (who corrupted Jesus (AS)'s teachings) agrees with this in Romans...

Jesus (AS) even testifies that people with the word of God can be called "Gods" and there in NO blasphemy in it. Look up John 10.

Did you know in Matthew's Gospel we see Jesus (AS) saying "your father" 13 times before he even says "my father"? What a peculiar situation. Especially when in the whole New Testament he is described as the "Son of Man" 83 times and only 13 times is he reffered to as the "Son of God".
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      10-22-2007, 01:48 PM   #480
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wolrd without mass religion would have atremendous amount of less hatred, wars, battles, arguments.

It would not remove all violence. I don't think WW1 and WW2 were related to religious violence.

Ultimately, nations and men seeking to attain more power/land/riches through the ultimate expression of politics - War.

Also - without religion - More cynism, skepticism, and less hope. I believe that religion and faith are ultimate expressions of hope and understanding of the unknown. There is a lot of good that happens through religion, which is why I take my kids to Sunday school
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      10-23-2007, 10:07 AM   #481
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My quote was in regards to Jesus as God, it Is in the bible. Remember, he was crucified with a guy on either side. One yelled at him to save all three, while the other was contritie and knew the He deserved to be up there, but not Jesus. That repentance gained him access after Jesus opened the doors to heaven.
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      10-23-2007, 10:24 AM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
My quote was in regards to Jesus as God, it Is in the bible. Remember, he was crucified with a guy on either side. One yelled at him to save all three, while the other was contritie and knew the He deserved to be up there, but not Jesus. That repentance gained him access after Jesus opened the doors to heaven.
I cant seem to find a reference for this. Please try give me it so I can see the exact wording of it all.
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      10-23-2007, 07:09 PM   #483
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The Passion begins at Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 and John 12 with the conspiracy against Jesus, that then unfolds in eight scenes. According to the Gospels, two thieves were also crucified, one on each side of him. According to Luke, one of the thieves reviled Jesus, while the other declared Jesus innocent and begged that he might be remembered when Jesus came to his kingdom.
During Holy week, when we participate in teh Passion of Christ as the whole congregation, the part about the thieves is often provided by the Narrator, as we the crowd chant "Crucify Him!"
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      10-24-2007, 06:24 PM   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
The Passion begins at Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 and John 12 with the conspiracy against Jesus, that then unfolds in eight scenes. According to the Gospels, two thieves were also crucified, one on each side of him. According to Luke, one of the thieves reviled Jesus, while the other declared Jesus innocent and begged that he might be remembered when Jesus came to his kingdom.
During Holy week, when we participate in teh Passion of Christ as the whole congregation, the part about the thieves is often provided by the Narrator, as we the crowd chant "Crucify Him!"
Okay I checked it up. Here's the problem though. Let's look at what the 4 Gospels say:

Mark (earliest Gospel):

They crucified two robbers with him, one on his right and one on his left.
Mark 15:27

Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
Mark 15:32


Matthew:

Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.
Matthew 27:38


In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
Matthew 27:44


Luke:

One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Luke 23:39-43


John:

Here they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle.
John 19:18



I cant understand why only Luke records this statement when the earliest Gospel Mark doesnt even have it? the other 3 dont have it either. It does place great doubt in the conversation Luke gave us...
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